Matt Stone and Trey Parker - Creators of South Park
"Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!"
Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy
Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.
Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.
But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.
"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."
Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.
But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.
"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.
But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."
"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.
Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."
But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.
"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.
With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.
According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.
Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.
Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and is the creator of this world under the direction of His Father.
He is the mediator between us and His Father.
We don't believe Jesus and His Father are the same person. No.
Gross Hypocrisy. They don't need to get a lawyer. They need to get a life.
Disclaimer before I begin my post. I don't like the Mormon Church, and I don't care for the Mormons I've met, and I don't care who knows it. You'll get none of this "I'm not a Mormon, but they seem like fine people and some of them are my best friends" nambypamby BS out of me.
Point one: They don't just baptise their ancestors. They baptise whomever they want. Folks on this thread have mentioned Anne Frank. She died as a young girl. She had no children. She's not anybody's ancestor, much less some long lost Mormon granddaughter, and yet it appears that they've performed this ritual on her behalf.
Point two: They can do all the baptising of the dead that they want, but I think non-participants of their religion have every right to be PO'd when they DOCUMENT such happenings. Ridiculous rituals are one thing. Creating and maintaining a database of the non-interested and non-consenting is another.
Not boastful. Just true. The Church organized by Jesus Christ had to be restored. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church. Until the Gospel was restored to Joseph Smith, nothing the existing church(es) did was "sufficient". If it was sufficient then there would have been no necessity to have the Church restored.
Lord Protector of the Fraternal Order of the Knights of the Eternal Time Table and Grand Advocate for the High Council of the Order of the Eternal Exclamation Point® (without asterik).
For Membership information please go here.
{!}
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Marlowe
Baptism, by those possessing the appropriate Priesthood keys and authority, is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. You can dunk all you want but if you lack the Priesthood - the original or the restored Priesthood - the baptism is not valid.
You don't know that they are not interested and you don't know that they are non-consenting. THEY'RE DEAD!
Keeping a data base is important so that they don't waste their time twice or three times. If they keep a data base, then they can keep their silly time wasting efforts to a minimum.
No, they don't. A fundamentalist Mormon would be someone who follows the current fundamental doctrine and the living Prophet. A fundamentalist Mormon would not practice polygamy and would, in fact, be excommunicated and wouldn't be able to call himself a Mormon any longer. You might call him a fundamentalist polygamist or something like that, but Mormon would not be an appropriate label.
Then why the hell don't they just say, "JimmyJoe, I baptise you on behalf of all people, living or dead, who may or may not appreciate the effort you are making today."
And be done with it.
"Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!"
You know that's a darn good idea. I'll ping some LDS folks and maybe they can take it up with the Mr. Hinkley. I don't think Mr. Hinkley would listen to me.
When a posthumous baptism is performed they're ALWAYS dead.
I think it's kind of silly to do this to an empty shell, but if it makes the mormans feel good, more power to them.
And if it makes the Jews and Christians feel bad, ef 'em?
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