Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[maui_hawaii]

As for denying Christ thats sheer garbage.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and is the creator of this world under the direction of His Father.

He is the mediator between us and His Father.

We don't believe Jesus and His Father are the same person. No.

[P-Marlowe]

Seems to me that some of the Jews and the Catholics here at FR take it more seriously than most of the LDS do. Geez they're all having a hissy fit over a ritual that they don't even believe in and they treat it as if the ritual itself can move heaven and earth and drag their long lost ancestors out of their restful peace with God and into the evil conniving hands of the Mormon heirarchy.

Gross Hypocrisy. They don't need to get a lawyer. They need to get a life.

[SaucyCranberry]

I don't want to hijack this thread any further, especially when you're not going to come to believe that Christ is in fact one with God and the Holy Spirit. Anymore than you could ever convince me to believe (again) that he was a "person" and separate from the Trinity. FR is a place I enjoy exchanging ideas and sometimes differing points of view with others without having my posts referred to as stupid or garbage. So I'll end my replies here. Peace to you and a Merry Christmas.

[Pharmboy]

Ahhhh...someone who believes that individuals should be harrased BEYOND the grave. Lemme guess: you're a telemarketer...no wait...I got it: You produce the spam that clogs my mailbox! Yeah--that's the ticket--LOWEST MORTGAGE RATES NOW. That's you, right?

[SaucyCranberry]

I'm so curous--what does your sig line stand for?

[TontoKowalski]

Geez they're all having a hissy fit over a ritual that they don't even believe in and they treat it as if the ritual itself can move heaven and earth and drag their long lost ancestors out of their restful peace with God and into the evil conniving hands of the Mormon heirarchy.

Disclaimer before I begin my post. I don't like the Mormon Church, and I don't care for the Mormons I've met, and I don't care who knows it. You'll get none of this "I'm not a Mormon, but they seem like fine people and some of them are my best friends" nambypamby BS out of me.

Point one: They don't just baptise their ancestors. They baptise whomever they want. Folks on this thread have mentioned Anne Frank. She died as a young girl. She had no children. She's not anybody's ancestor, much less some long lost Mormon granddaughter, and yet it appears that they've performed this ritual on her behalf.

Point two: They can do all the baptising of the dead that they want, but I think non-participants of their religion have every right to be PO'd when they DOCUMENT such happenings. Ridiculous rituals are one thing. Creating and maintaining a database of the non-interested and non-consenting is another.

[frgoff]

Repeating what you were taught in seminary. That would be the four-year program high school kids take, just to clarify for those non-Mormons on this board who might compare it with traditional Protestant seminaries (not that you would have any desire to deceive anyone, of course.)

Of course, the seminary course doesn't teach what you claim in any event. This is from the perspective of a student and a teacher in the program.

[Spiff]

My... how boastful! "..until JS came along, NOTHING the existing church has done was sufficient."

Not boastful. Just true. The Church organized by Jesus Christ had to be restored. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church. Until the Gospel was restored to Joseph Smith, nothing the existing church(es) did was "sufficient". If it was sufficient then there would have been no necessity to have the Church restored.

[P-Marlowe]

I'm so curous--what does your sig line stand for?

Lord Protector of the Fraternal Order of the Knights of the Eternal Time Table and Grand Advocate for the High Council of the Order of the Eternal Exclamation Point® (without asterik).

For Membership information please go here.

{!}

<><

Marlowe

[Spiff]

I'm sorry Spiff, I don't follow you. Why can't our ancestors do the accepting themselveS? Why do they need a specific system??????

Baptism, by those possessing the appropriate Priesthood keys and authority, is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. You can dunk all you want but if you lack the Priesthood - the original or the restored Priesthood - the baptism is not valid.

[frgoff]

Mormonism is very closely tied to Judaism in several respects. Here's a few off the top of my head:

The need for the Priesthood of Aaron. All Mormon men who are worthy receive the Aaronic priesthood in their thirteenth year.

The return of Elijah, for whom Jews keep an empty chair during passover, happened in the Kirtland temple.

Moses appeared in the Kirtland temple to bestow the keys for the gathering of Israel to the latter-day prophets.

All Mormons must be part of the house of Israel, either through lineage, or by adoption. Your lineage is given in your patriarchal blessing. Personally, I'm of Ephraim. This is essential because God has not forgotten his chosen people, and the blessings of Abraham are only given to Abraham's descendents, either by lineage or adoption.

That's just the two or three I could come up with off the top of my head.

[P-Marlowe]

Creating and maintaining a database of the non-interested and non-consenting is another.

You don't know that they are not interested and you don't know that they are non-consenting. THEY'RE DEAD!

Keeping a data base is important so that they don't waste their time twice or three times. If they keep a data base, then they can keep their silly time wasting efforts to a minimum.

[Spiff]

The fundamentalists do!

No, they don't. A fundamentalist Mormon would be someone who follows the current fundamental doctrine and the living Prophet. A fundamentalist Mormon would not practice polygamy and would, in fact, be excommunicated and wouldn't be able to call himself a Mormon any longer. You might call him a fundamentalist polygamist or something like that, but Mormon would not be an appropriate label.

[TontoKowalski]

Keeping a data base is important so that they don't waste their time twice or three times. If they keep a data base, then they can keep their silly time wasting efforts to a minimum.

Then why the hell don't they just say, "JimmyJoe, I baptise you on behalf of all people, living or dead, who may or may not appreciate the effort you are making today."

And be done with it.

[Spiff]

" dum dum dum dum dum..."

Matt Stone and Trey Parker - Creators of South Park

"Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!"

[frgoff]

Because we all know that the eye-opening experience of death and say, perhaps, meeting Jesus Christ with his arm around Joseph Smith and saying: Let me introduce you to someone, would never change anyone's mind. :-)

[philetus]

Usually, when a posthumous baptism is performed, the person receiving it is already dead.
I think it's kind of silly to do this to an empty shell, but if it makes the mormans feel good, more power to them.

[frgoff]

If I'm not mistaken, putting not so strong mormons into their levels of heaven will allow some of the borderline mormons to move up in the levels. Um, you're mistaken. Don't feel bad, though, people write and say some of the absolute kookiest stuff about Mormons. The whole purpose of baptisms for the dead is to do something for a person which they are unable to do for themselves. It's an act of total selflessness, and it's a real shame that all people can do is ridicule it or attack it.

[P-Marlowe]

Then why the hell don't they just say, "JimmyJoe, I baptise you on behalf of all people, living or dead, who may or may not appreciate the effort you are making today." And be done with it.

You know that's a darn good idea. I'll ping some LDS folks and maybe they can take it up with the Mr. Hinkley. I don't think Mr. Hinkley would listen to me.

[Pharmboy]

Usually, when a posthumous baptism is performed, the person receiving it is already dead.

When a posthumous baptism is performed they're ALWAYS dead.

I think it's kind of silly to do this to an empty shell, but if it makes the mormans feel good, more power to them.

And if it makes the Jews and Christians feel bad, ef 'em?