Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy
Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.
Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.
But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.
"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."
Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.
But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.
"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.
But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."
"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.
Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."
But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.
"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.
With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.
According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.
Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.
Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.
The fact that Polygamy is illegal may have something to do with that.
It is generally know among those who are literate that we don't count among our exponentially growing numbers of members those who have had saving ordinances performed in their behalf after death.
We increase our numbers the old-fashioned way -- by going out as the Lord commanded and teaching to prepare the children of men to be persuaded by the Holy Spirit to accept the truth and have the courage to act on it.
In so doing we are enormously successful in our efforts.
And our success in bringing so many souls unto Christ is exactly that which so exquisitely gripes the @$$es of also-ran, would-be "Christian evangelists" -- who exist both here on the FR and elsewhere in ever-dwindling numbers -- who consider such to be "odious in the extreme."
But, then, eating your hearts out for all to see may be a necessary first step in the repentance necessary for you to truly become worthy to come unto Christ -- and hopefully to do so in this life......
Christ and Asses in the same sentence. Yep what a pious bunch of "Christiane's" you are.
Ah, but we do that too. We have one of the largest, most successful proselyting missionary programs in the world. At any one time we have 60,000-70,000 young missionaries serving 2-year missions that they themselves pay for. The standard curriculum program we use throughout the Church is unsurpassed, we have tens of thousands of Seminaries next to High Schools and hundreds of Institutes of Religion on college campuses. We've translated our Scriptures into nearly every language and twice a year the leaders of the Church guide and teach us "live people not to do the things that get them sent to Hell" through a worldwide 2-day satellite broadcast simultaneously translated into dozens of languages . We make every possible effort to teach the living.
That isn't practical. You can have other people do the work for the ancestors you've submitted. But, you do have to be a relative to submit a name to have the work done.
The Mormons are not "claiming" any new members. They are merely ensuring that these people are not left out of Salvation because of a technicality.
As I said before, I'm not a Mormon and I do not believe in Mormon doctrine.
However, I presume that Mormons do believe.
They believe that by doing these post-mortem baptisms, they are allowing these people to enter Heaven.
The Mormons are doing this to, in their belief, save an immortal soul for all Eternity. You are asking them to, in their belief, not to save these souls because it is "tacky" and because it is "insulting and obnoxious" to the easily offended.
Let's see.......Which one to pick?........Save an immortal soul for all Eternity.........Not be thought of as "tacky" by some.
What a choice!
If some Mormon cares enough about my non-Mormon soul and about the souls of my dead non-Mormon ancestors to take the time and trouble to, in their belief, make it possible for us to be saved for all Eternity, I find that quite admirable.
If a Jewish Rabbi, a Protestant Minister, a Muslim cleric or a Hindu Priest were to take the time and trouble to do whatever it is that they do to, in their belief, help me or my family or my ancestors in the hereafter, I would find that quite admirable too.
Well since incest is an historical problem starting with every tribal community through the various royal families in the world I don't think it is a stretch to say that yes incest would increase in all regions of the United States should it become legal. What is your point? Mormons have codified polygamy as an acceptable religious tenant. I know of no other Christian denominations that would countenancer the practice even if made legal, do you?
You missed my point entirely.
That is God's province NOT the Mormons. God gave us this time on earth to do His will as each of us discern it. That is the ONLY chance we have. If Hitler is baptized by Salt Lake City, is he now plucking a harp next to Gabriel?
As for the second part of your post, you are asking a very pertinent and good question.
In the end, God knows who has lived and who hasn't. There will be a time for all of that to be worked out.
In one scripture it says something like "even if one sparrow falls God will know it"
To specifically answer your question, after the Second Coming, all the details will be worked out. Jesus will be here in front of all of us to direct the work.
As for now, people generally who are baptised for the dead are direct relatives of the members of the LDS church.
Thats why we do so much geneology. 99.9% of the baptisms for the dead are done for direct ancestors.
Nope, you just substitute a Mormon sanctioned practice of adultey and call it polygamy. I didn't "miss your point".
Not to worry. A loving Father in Heaven (aka, God) would not allow such to happen. And it is He who eternally is in charge....
I think that people are in fact baptizing whatever names they can get their hands on, in violation of this policy. If it were just peoples' relatives, I don't think there would be an issue here. I would be curious to know who Anne Franks' Mormon relatives are.
When Jesus comes again, everything will be reconciled and put into its perfect place.
It just depends on how long they will have to wait. One day with the Lord is as a thousand years...
As for right now though, we work at it, and up there where all the spirits of my dead relatives are...there are missionaries up there teaching those who never had the chance to learn here.
Once the 'application' is done for them they can accept or deny.
No. Baptism is only one element. He would also have to go through one heck of a repentence process and I don't know if you can even repent of murder. If there is a way over an eternity (which is a very long time) to make amends for his sins and to achieve repentence, he'll still have to have been baptised to make any progress.
It sure beats Hitler being able to mumble the words "I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, etc." as he dies in the bunker allowing him to strum harps next to Gabriel after he dies.
That is God's province NOT the Mormons. God gave us this time on earth to do His will as each of us discern it.
As I said, I'm not a Mormon and I do not believe in Mormon doctrine.
The Mormons, however, believe that just like Christian missionaries believe that introducing non-Christians to Christ will allow those people to enter Heaven.
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