Posted on 10/10/2003 9:29:50 AM PDT by yonif
Painting.......sanding.......cleaning.......This is not the type of service that appeals to a world-class traveler like yourself.
BTW....what does that gibberish say underneath the server? I hate it when you do that.
The Liberty was a non-combatant vessel sailing in international waters in broad daylight, flying the flag of an ally.
Undeniable? What about Pollard?
Don't get me wrong - I'm a supporter of Israel, based solely on principle. But anyone who does not think that Israel has their own agenda, and gets far more from the relationship than we do, has their head buried in the sand.
In 1967, Egypt was at war with Israel. The territory from where the Liberty was at was being bombarded. The Liberty was thought to be the Egyptian ship doing that. Israel was told no US ships were in the area.
From the article, "It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck," he told The Jerusalem Post. "This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours."
So if it dosen't have the Israeli cross on it, it must be the enemy?
This attack went on for hours without fire returned to the Israelis. If the Israeli pilots have to take time to look for signs whether or not it is an Israeli ship, can't they assess other attributes of the ship? No hostile motion. No cannons. No other armament. No armed escort? Just a sitting duck out in the sea. The Liberty didn't shoot at any of the Israeli war planes thoughout the long attack, so therefore it must be an ememy ship? This is not a simple mistake.
Israel was at war. US told Israel it did not have any ships in the area. Fire was coming out of that area. Israel scrambled fighters there. Israel knew it did not have any ships there because of the fact it had to scramble these fighters.
Why didn't they sink it?
Gee, I don't know.
Do you suppose the arrogant bastard missed?
Do you suppose he really didn't have any bomblets?
Do you suppose he couldn't see from the smoke?
Do you suppose his wingman signaled he had screwed the pooch?
You damn Kahane freaks just don't get it do you?
Many years ago there was a pretty dumb portrayal of The Ugly American and while it was true of only a handful of jackasses who were as rude and stupid at home on the golf-course as they were in Raffles there was some truth to the charge. But no matter; the idea stuck and just like the ugly American 92% of the globe thinks Jews are arrogant whiners and guess who gets to inherit the backlash from the arrogant jerks like this puke? I do and you do if you're Jewish.
There is plenty of anti-Semitism around; don't encourage more.
I have a suggestion for Ariel and the rest of the sassy right wing zealots. Trade this puke for Pollard and shut up.
All pilots, especially fighter pilots, tend towards the arrogant. Actually his remark it's just a blunt statement of fact, and his opinion that our ship was where it should not been.
My dog once got in a fight with another dog. I tried to break it up and got bit by my own dog. There was no conspiracy. Just me sticking my hand in where it did not belong and getting bit by accident.
If we're going to cling to the conspiracy theories regarding the Liberty, then we should keep our mouths shut when the Arabs talk conspiracy about the downing of that Iranian airliner by our most sophisticated of ships, or when the Canadians demand prosecutions because of our bombing their troops in Afghanistan.
When the shooting starts and the adrenaline starts flowing, soldiers, all soldiers, tend to shoot first and ask questions later. Accidents tend to happen. It's called friendly fire and it's a problem in every conflict.
As for identification of the Liberty, flags are tough to identify when there is little or no wind and they're draped down the pole. They're even harder to identify when you are flying 400 to 500mph in a jet fighter. Ask any Navy pilot. Why do you think Isreali ships had big white crosses painted on them? Flags are hard to identify from fast moving aircraft even if they're flying in a stiff breeze. I know this from first hand experience.
The Liberty is a matter more than one fast fly-by. It was a sustained attack. I suggest you read through a webpage which draws on the firsthand accounts of the US servicemen who were there. An excerpt giving a summary account is given below. For all the intelligence the Israelis are capable of among Arabs and on American soil, I find it incredible to believe that they did not know the USS Liberty was in the area.
“On 8 June 1967 the electronic intelligence ship USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was on station in international waters 13 miles off the Sinai Peninsula in the eastern Mediterranean. The Arab-Israeli War had wound down, the air was clear, and the seas were light. What happened early that Thursday afternoon is well known. Without warning, a furious attack on the ship commenced from Israeli Mirage and Mystere jets, followed by Ayah-class motor torpedo boats (MTBs). Employed were rockets, napalm, quick-firing 30-mm and 40-mm cannon, .50-caliber machine guns, and torpedoes. Four unshielded .50-caliber machine guns were the Liberty's only defense. The one Israeli torpedo hit of five launched left a yawning 40-foot hole in the hull, devastating the cryptological spaces below decks and killing 25 U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) technicians instantly.”
I've not only been through the website top to bottom, I've read two books on the subject, seen at least that many TV documentaries, and beat this dead horse into jerky here and at Liberty Post.
The crews of the torpedo boats were in no better position to make a correct identification than the pilots. I have practical experience in teaching threat identification as an Army Intelligence officer. Compared to ships (excluding major warships like CV's and BB's), identifying tanks and aircraft is a piece of cake, and you'd be suprised how hard it is to teach soldiers to properly do it even in a classroom environment. Put them in a real threat situation and they tend to screw it up everytime.
In fact, in the first gulf war, fratricide was so bad that the Army practically gave up trying to teach soldiers threat identification through vehicle classification. That's why all of the vehicles had those zebra striped panels on them this time around. Anything without an ID panel gets shot--period.
Lastly, there is the adrenaline factor. In any given situation, once a shot is fired, all bets are off and everyone starts shooting at any imagined target.
I proved this point during an ftx by going out to the perimeter and firing my M-16 out into the woods beyond our defenseive line. It was broad daylight, no threat in sight. Within 15 seconds every weapon in the batallion was engaged firing at nothing. Later I repeated the demonstration by firing on a vehicle clearly marked as "friendly" (big visible "Blue Force" ID panels). Same thing happened. This whole thing was done to prove a point a point about fire discipline.
Now, if this is the way trained soldiers react in peace time, firing blanks, how do you think they will react when they are at war and have been sent to attack a ship they have been told is firing at their troops?
Even police have this problem. Remember that kid in NY that was blasted 19 times because he reached for his wallet? One cop misinterpreted what the guy was doing and as soon as he fired one shot, he and his partners emptied their clips.
My take on what happened is that the Liberty was mistaken for the Egyptian ship that the Isreali pilots and sailors were sent to intercept, and predisposed to identify as such. A horrible mistake abetted by Johnson's ordering the ship into an area we had been warned against entering.
The Isrealis had nothing to gain and everything to lose by deliberately attacking a U.S. warship.
The Liberty's crew members and their family's are angry over what happened, justly so, but their anger IMHO is mis-directed.
"In war more than anywhere else in the world things happen differently from what we had expected, and look differently when near from what they did at a distance." - Clausewitz, On War, 1832.
"War is the province of uncertainty; three fourths of the things on which war is based lie hidden in the fog of greater or less uncertainty." - Clausewitz, On War, 1832.
"It is my opinion that coordination is a very much-misused word and its accomplishment is difficult." - General George S. Patton, Jr., War As I Knew It. 1947.
"In... a close fight a soldier has not time to change his mind." - General George S. Patton, Jr. November 22, 1942.
Isreal uses the USA like an ATM that doesn't need deposits. It is smaller in population than Los Angeles, but gets billions in aid. Like the Latino population, the Jews get support way out of proportion to their numbers.
It galls me that we have to support Israel, but we must. But you have to admit that if it didn't exist, 9/11 would not have happened. The Palestinians would still be like they are now, but there would be no one to blame but the perpetrators: Jordan.
If not for oil, the Middle East would be regarded the same as Africa. A 3rd world cesspool full of barely educated savages.
Your source?
The Isrealis had nothing to gain and everything to lose by deliberately attacking a U.S. warship.
If your 'source' is accurate then clearly you lack strategic logic.
The Liberty's crew members and their family's are angry over what happened, justly so, but their anger IMHO is mis-directed.
With this kind of spin one can only wonder at your motives.
You pretend to have facts that simply are not available to you, speaking from a position of alleged experience, so my advice is simple. Drop the subject.
I have no motives in this argument one way or another. But I find it interesting that anyone who takes my position is always accused of being mis-informed or of trying to spread dis-information based on some secret, sinister motive.
As for facts, it would not matter what "facts" I presented, you would not accept any of them. I have been down this road before with people like you and I'm tired of it. You guys always degenerate into the personal smears.
You have already called my character into question for no good reason and that tells anyone who reads your post how objective you are.
If you are referring to the black immigrant who was shot in the dark of midnight in a doorway by four NY cops of which three were just hired in the previous six months as part of Clinton's add 100,000 police to America's streets, I can't buy the analogy. This is a case of poor management and training and not being equipped to work in the dark. Israeli armed forces suffer from neither and carried out the attack in broad daylight.
One other fact that bothers me is that a US submarine monitoring the area underwater determined the USS Liberty was under attack, reported the event, and was given orders not to interfere. If US seamen can see the 'mistake' from underwater and have enough time to relay the event to higher command and get return orders, I find it incredulous that Israeli pilots and seamen can't even determine that the enemy has no armament even though they have direct sight of the target.
You talk of the brevity of combat tactics. Millions of people drive cars. On highways, most people are taught to keep behind other cars to to give themselves enough distance to allow them one second to react. Most do this successfully. This rule applies even to old people and inexperienced teenagers. Most accidents are caused by drunks, old people who are severely handicapped by physical deterioration and mental alertness, and teenagers who drive recklessly. One second is generous for an able bodied middle aged driver. An experienced gun shooter can draw and fire hitting a target in a fifth of a second. Now you are going to tell me that well trained seamen approaching on a torpedo boat can’t tell that the target is not shelling Israel? What the torpedo boat was too fast for human reaction?
As much as I detest Clark Clifford one of the leaders of those claiming that this was a malevolent act by Israel, the facts do not support the idea this was a simple wartime mistake.
I would also suggest that for diplomatic and strategic reasons that leaders in the US State Department and the Pentagon go along with covering up the truth as a matter of political expediency.
There's a a "plus one second" rule, see "The Two Second Plus Rule" on Deerbrook Insurance's "Defensive Driving" web page. (http://www.deerbrook.com/auto_safety/defensive_driving.asp)
That's an extension to the two second rule, or the three second rule. See also Smart Motorist's very conservative guidance: http://www.smartmotorist.com/tai/tai.htm.
One second at speeds over 15 mph is too close.
I win.
Now, sit.
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