Was the Islam of Old Spain Truly Tolerant? (The Religion of Peace™ and its idea of inclusiveness)

The New York Times ^ | Septermber 27, 2003 | Edward Rothstein

[quidnunc]

Quote:

But these varieties of Islamic style, far from reflecting a humanistic vision, suggest a world governed by the rigors of the intellect and the strictures of law. That world, whether in a mosque or a palace, presumes submission and declares mastery. … But the individual is not the focus of attention. The position or status of the individual is. This is quite different from the humane ideal so often attached to Andalusia's name. The outcome is not a version of tolerance, though at its best it can offer a version of the sublime.

The upshot is, to the Muslim mind tolerance and inclusion means that infidels are turned into second-class citizens dependent upon the mercy of Muslims instead of being killed.

[Voltage]

I have discussed this history with educated people who knew absolutely nothing about it. After getting them at least a little enlightened they usually say that nothing like this could happen today.

But it is such ignorance which could enable it again. France could be the first to fall into a modern dark age. Will people who have adopted the multicultural view defend their own culture when attempts are made to smother it?

While much has changed, many things have not. Perhaps there will be another 'al-Andalus'. Is there a modern day Charles Martel in our future?

[curmudgeonII]

During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.

[joesnuffy]

Its this Spanish version of Islam that the muslims are using to appeal to Mexicans, Latins and South Americans

Islam making inroads south of our borders as well as north and right here at home- for that matterl...

Though the Catholic Church of Spain made catholics of nearly all of the Americas....at least some Hispanics in prison seem to be converting...

Those who dont revert back to some bastardized form of Pagan Earth/Aztec/Mayan/Inca worship in Aztlan...may imbrace Islam

After all any religon that wishes to run off or kill off white people and take their possesions cant be all bad...then there is the matter of
pedophile priests who are probably not making many friends among Hispanics who for the most part abhore that kind of perversity...

[Whispering Smith]

We had better hatch a batch of Hammers. A return to the 7th century AD (CE to be politically correct) is unthinkable.

[CatoRenasci]

That may be true, but Christianity did not start the wars with Islam, Islam did. Christianity only fought back.

Furthermore, Christianity was adopted by a Roman Emperor, but in the same years Islam was busy conquering territory for the ol' Arabian moon god, Christianity was not spreading itself with the sword. Later, after the Crusades, with the Teutonic knights and with the Spanish in America, perhaps, but basically, Christianity has spread with missonaries preaching, not soldiers putting the sword to people and telling them convert or die, as does Islam.

[Guillermo]

How Intolerant!

How dare they suggest Islam was not tolerant?

And from the NY Times, no less!

[livius]

The difference is that the defects of Christianity came from the defects of believers - that is, their tendency to ignore the fundamental precepts of their religion in their greed, quest for power, etc.

By contrast, the defects of Islam come from its practice: it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system. Every time Muslims in Spain or elsewhere became more "tolerant" - that is, less zealous in clinging to the bizarre precepts of their religion - they were destroyed by other groups of more zealous Muslims.

This is exactly what is happening once again in the contemporary world.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.

Perhaps this will help. Whenever the Christian brute enforces intolerance, he has to contort the New Testament to divine his moral obligation. The Muslim brute, on the other hand, just simply has to have a literal reading of the Koran.

[quidnunc]

curmudgeonII wrote: During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.

Granted, but nobody today with two brain cells to rub together claims that it was.

On the other hand Andalusian Islam is touted by many as being nirvana.

[denydenydeny]

Very valuable article.

[AdvisorB]

There will never be another "al-Andalus" in Espana, never. My mother's family is from Galicia; A Coruna to be exact. A ciudad on the far northwestern tip of Spain. These people, though far from Andalusia, have a visceral dislike for the "morisco"

Though bin ladin made remarks about restoring "morisco" rule in Espana, that is about as likely as the "reconquista" of the American southwest by the Aztalans.

[Tunehead54]

By contrast, the defects of Islam come from its practice: it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system. Every time Muslims in Spain or elsewhere became more "tolerant" - that is, less zealous in clinging to the bizarre precepts of their religion - they were destroyed by other groups of more zealous Muslims.

---

Very good point. Thanks.

[King Prout]

bang. you nailed it.

[King Prout]

have you looked at Kali, NM, AZ, and Tay-hah lately?

[Kenny Bunk]

The difference is that the
defects of Christianity come from the defects of believers
- that is, their tendency to ignore the fundamental precepts of their religion in their greed, quest for power, etc.

By contrast,
the defects of Islam come from its practice:
it is, in its very scriptures, a violent, cruel creed that is both a religion and a political system.

verbum sat sapientes

[livius]

Spain was not a land of gothic barbarians, but I guess, if that's what you want to believe, a little history wouldn't get in your way.

[quidnunc]

livius wrote: Spain was not a land of gothic barbarians, but I guess, if that's what you want to believe, a little history wouldn't get in your way.

Well, Torquemada wasn't exactly a fifteenth-century Ghandi, the Spanish inquisiition wasn't an early-day Rotary Club and an auto da fe wasn't quite akin to a Sunday-school picnic.

[quidnunc]

gpl4eva wrote: … too bad they couldn't be content with doing like the moors had done in portugal -- bring civilization to a land of gothic barbarians.

The Moors brought civilization to the Spanish much in the same way that Nazis brought civilization to the Jews in the years prior to the 'final solution.'