Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

[Lorianne]

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________

Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses

In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.

One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".

The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.

Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.

The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".

In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".

Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.

The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.

[TheCrusader]

"So in short, I ask because I'm curious -- I'm not sure why you got your back up since I am in no way criticizing."

People are assuming that the Pope opposes the liturgical changes that were proposed in the original draft just because it was sent back for further editing and revision. But for all we know the Pope may have sent it back because it was not strong enough and he wants to close some loopholes in the document. People have a tendency to be impatient and to assume things before they really know what's going on. In my mind, any change for the better is a good change, even if it's not strong enough yet. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - and this is a step in the right direction.

[A CA Guy]

Well Christ was a Jew, so Jew were vastly among his followers making them among the first Christians.

[GirlShortstop]

Besides girls cannot keep secrets...they might tell on
the pedophile priests.

Oh how funny...  perhaps sharing your "wit" with the devistated families and faithful in a Community Amateur Night would be worth your time?    </sarcasm off>.

[ninenot]

thus instilling in the mind of the faithful the idea that contraception might be subject to revision.

Sinky--my analogy holds. Your objection is a smokescreen.

Inter alia, those who actually thought that the constant teaching of the Church would be derogated or abrogated consisted of only a very few activists--people who were and remain suspects. Charlie Curran is an excellent example.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

If it's true that the Pope backs such measures, I wonder what the reasoning is? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Perhaps they don't trust the priests. There is a history there...for those that haven't been keeping up with current events.

[sinkspur]

those who actually thought that the constant teaching of the Church would be derogated or abrogated consisted of only a very few activists--

Why did John XXIII convene a commission to study contraception if the teaching was not in question? And, why did it take Paul VI TWO YEARS to respond to the leak that the commission had recommended that the teaching BE changed?

The silence let the the horse out of the barn, so to speak.

[freeangel]

Thank you for mentioning that. I would also venture to say that the Last Supper was not conducted in Latin either.

[A CA Guy]

Here is the break-away background and history of Christianity.

Moses around 1600 BC, received the Ten Commandments from God. This directly became the basis of Judaism and Jewish beliefs.

Judaism was the original one-God belief system (around 14 million)
Conservative Judaism
Orthodox Judaism (only officially recognized group)
Reconstructionist Judaism
Reform Judaism

Jesus (4 BC to about 30 AD), was crucified and became the basis of Christianity. (around 1869 million)
Roman Catholic Church (about 50 AD) begun by Saint Paul (around 1042 million)
Orthodox Church (around 900 AD) broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the Great Schism (around 173 million)
Russian Orthodox Church (about 70 million)
Romanian Orthodox Church (about 21 million)
Greek Orthodox Church
Constantinople (a few thousand)

Protestant Church (1517 AD) broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the Protestant Reformation (around 382 million)
Lutheran Church (1517 AD) begun by Martin Luther (around 70 million)
Moravian Church (1727) (about 360,000)
Brethren (1708) (about 170,000)
Amana Society (1842) (about 900)

Calvinism (1531)
Reformed Church (1537)
Reformed Church in America (RCA) (1748) (1867) (350 thousand)
Christian Reformed Church (CRC)
Presbyterian (1649) (about 50 million)
Disciples of Christ (1809) (1832) (about 1.1 million)
Christian Churches and Churches of Christ (1969)
Arminius (greatly influenced Wesley) (1610)

Zwingli Anabaptism (1523)
Free Church Tradition (1527)
Swiss Reformed Church (1523)
Congregational Christian Churches
Evangelical and Reformed Church
United Church of Christ (1957, combined CCC and ERC) (about 1.7 million)
Melchiorites (1533)
Mennonite Church (1536) (1591)
(Old) Mennonite Church (largest)
Amish (1693) (about 40,000)
Old Order Amish (majority)
Conservative Amish
Unitarian Church (1560) (1743) (about 173,000)
Hutterian Brethren (1533) (about 20,000)
Baptists (1611) (1639) (both Calvin and Zwingli) (about 35 million)
A multitude of relatively independent Churches
Landmark (1856)

Anglican (1647) (somewhat Calvinist) (about 75 million)
Episcopal (about 27 million)
Protestant Episcopal Church (1789) (about 2.5 million)
Methodist Church begun by John Wesley (1744) (about 38 million)
Holiness (1840s) (1880s)
Fire-Baptized Holiness Church (1895)
Church of the Nazarene (1908) (about 7000 congregs)
Salvation Army (1865) (about 2.5 million)
Pentecostal (1901) (about 51 million)
Assembly of God (1914) (about 2.1 million)
Church of God in Christ (1906)
Int'l Church of the Foursquare Gospel (1927)
Open Bible Standard Church
Pentecostal Church of God
United Pentecostal Church
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee)
Pentecostal Holiness Church
African Methodist Episcopal Church (1816) (these three, about 2.5 million)
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church (1820)
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church (1870)
Methodist Church (1939, combined MPC, MECS and MEC)
Evangelical United Brethren Church (EUB) (1946, combined 1807 Churches) (about 750,000)
United Methodist Church (1968, combined MC and EUBC)
Wesleyan Methodist Church (1840s)
Methodist Protestant Church (1828)
Free Methodist Church (1860)
Methodist Episcopal Church, South (1844)
Puritans (c. 1580)
Pilgrims (1620)

Eastern Rite Churches (about 11 million)
Alexandrian
Antiochene
Armenian
Chaldean
Byzantine
Ukranian Catholic Church (1596) (about 5 million)
Romanian Eastern Rite Church (1700)
Armenian Church (c.400 AD) (about 1.6 million)
Coptic Church (c. 400 AD) (about 7 million)

Mohammed (570 AD to 632 AD) initiated Islamic (Muslim or Moslem) belief.
Sunnites (656 AD) strict followers of the practices of the Prophet (the great majority of Muslims, around 950 million)
Shiites (656 AD) followers of Fatima/Ali (Prophet's son-in-law)
Twelvers (Ithna Ashariyya) (largest group)
Seveners (Ismailis)
Fivers (Zaydites)

[ninenot]

Why did John XXIII convene a commission to study contraception if the teaching was not in question?

As you well know, the teaching itself was NEVER under question. What was studied was the effects of the drugs and whether such effects were in conflict with the teaching. This was done largely because some powerful American interests (Rockefeller & Co, J&J) had persuaded a number of high-ranking clerics that perhaps 'the Pill' was not in conflict with constant Church teachings

And, why did it take Paul VI TWO YEARS to respond to the leak that the commission had recommended that the teaching BE changed?

Regardless of the Commission's recommendation, Paul VI studied the matter again and consulted with other individuals. As you know, the leak was from an American couple who were later VERY active with Call to Action. They were then, and remain to this day, dissidents, like UpChuck Curran.

The silence let the the horse out of the barn, so to speak

Only someone with a serious "moral-education-deficiency-syndrome" combined with a serious "inclined-to-disobedience-anyway" syndrome would act AGAINST existing Church teaching in anticipation of a change which was at best, a 50/50 proposition.

Of course, the dissidents (many priests and Bishops), did their best--I don't necessarily blame the laity, until AFTER the Pope wrote the encyclical.

[ninenot]

The Last Supper was the Passover--using Hebrew, not Aramaic, which was the "vernacular" at that time and place.

Hebrew was the lingua sacra of the Jews and remains so to this day.

Whatta thought, eh? "Sacred Language, Sacred Time, Sacred Space."

[stanz]

I don't know if you've seen the thread entitled "Prayer Request For a Tiny Baby". If not, please look for it and send a prayer for little Logan who is a premature infant, 2 months old, who has just had surgery and needs prayers to come out of the anaesthesia. I'm sure his Grandma would appreciate hearing from you. Thank you.

[TheCrusader]

"I don't know if you've seen the thread entitled "Prayer Request For a Tiny Baby". If not, please look for it and send a prayer for little Logan who is a premature infant, 2 months old, who has just had surgery and needs prayers to come out of the anaesthesia. I'm sure his Grandma would appreciate hearing from you. Thank you."

Prayers said, will include him again tomorrow in my rosary.

[stanz]

Many thanks. It's appreciated.

[IrishRainy]

Any "Catholic" woman who would NOT raise their child Catholic is not a true Catholic in the first place. And I would bet $$ they weren't married in the Church, either.

When I married my non-Catholic husband more than 20 years ago, we had to sign a document stating that WE would raise our children Catholic. We kept our promise, BTW, and he even converted to catholicism in 1995!

[Barnacle]

This missive seems to be dissing women and the culturally non-European in a singularly nasty tone.

You are obviously outside of our church. And that’s fine. I hope you’ve found a church that doesn’t diss women and is “culturally non-European” and not “singularly nasty tone”.

But, please don’t through rocks at our windows. We have enough problems to deal without malicious attacks from fellow Christians.

[Barnacle]

through = throw

(My secretary has the day off.)