Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Continuing to shift the momentum.
1 posted on 09/21/2003 11:20:35 PM PDT by bondserv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-26 next last
To: Elsie; gore3000; AndrewC; jennyp; f.Christian; lockeliberty; RadioAstronomer; LiteKeeper; ...
And Ping again!
2 posted on 09/21/2003 11:23:12 PM PDT by bondserv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
beat the ping...tx
3 posted on 09/21/2003 11:25:36 PM PDT by dasboot (Celebrate UNITY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
There is no momentum toward creationism among those who respect reality.

Creationism is hedonism: Believing something because it makes you feel good to believe it.
4 posted on 09/21/2003 11:42:34 PM PDT by BCrago66
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
With all due respect, insofar as I can see, God does not play an explicit role in the formation of our Solar System (not withstanding the Bible)or for that matter our every day lives. I would much rather rely on a 20th or 21 St Century rationalist than a 5000 year old goat herder. But then again, call me close-minded.
5 posted on 09/21/2003 11:44:39 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
How old is the Earth?

Depends. How old is George Clooney? You know it's his world, and we just live in it.

11 posted on 09/22/2003 4:17:38 AM PDT by YourAdHere (Ryan S. goes 2nd on S7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
Let's start with the basics.

Can someone explain why there are fossiles of subtropical and tropical life all over the planet ?


12 posted on 09/22/2003 4:24:29 AM PDT by Truth666
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
"How Old Is the Earth?" No flesh man knows, and we are not told by our Heavenly Father.
13 posted on 09/22/2003 4:32:05 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
I really dislike these threads. I am a BAC but scientist and have no problem with "a thousand years are like a day". There are many BACs who are not Creationists. What bothers me is we are discounted as not possibly Christian since we do not ascribe to Creationism.

Darwin's God is an excellent book by a believer who brings out an important point. If you go back in time an look at how the whole story of creation has grown more complex with time as well as all science, it shows not a simple God but a complex God well beyond our understanding. Life goes from a simple act into something that is truly miraculous because it should never have happened.

Rare Earth, written by secular scientists, makes the same point but in regard to earth and life. Science shows it cannot happen.

Both books show a God who is in charge of all, because he defies probability and is beyond our comprehension.

All the points that were in the post rely on a false premise that science is frozen at this date. For example- why not dustless, why not random, etc.. Most can be answered by hypothesis but any good scientist will say "We do not know yet." That is what science is all about. Finding answers.

The truth is, God could have created everything one second ago. That would not be rational, so He did not. So when did He do it? We will find out eventually. In the meantime, let us worry more about the creation of a new believer, and not putting things in their way that have no bearing on their eternal soul.
14 posted on 09/22/2003 4:33:25 AM PDT by KeyWest
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
And the Earth is flat, at the center of the universe, and everything revolves around us.(/sarcasm)
16 posted on 09/22/2003 4:55:41 AM PDT by R. Scott
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
"For the absolute age, he refers to a 4.567 billion year figure.........."

This figure is interesting as it comes up often with studies of isotopes. It assumes that there were equal amounts of, say U238and U235, created at the beginning (a reasonal assumption, but an assumption none the less) so the ratios of these isotopes still present and their known decay rates give a marker for their supposed date of creation.

All indications are that the earth is very old, certainly more than 10,000 years, and that still doesn't threaten the Biblical record or substantiate the theory of evolution.

17 posted on 09/22/2003 5:09:07 AM PDT by nightdriver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
"How old is the earth?"

The answer has been surmised enough. No human was there to observe its beginning who also is able to report with accuracy how much time has passed since. And even if he were, his report would have to be received with as much faith as anything that purports to be divine revelation.

The question assumes the earth has a beginning. In the end all of us make a leap of faith when we decide whether matter has a beginning or not, let alone the planet we inhabit. I've always wondered r.e. carbon dating whether scientists are measuring the age of a FORM or a SUBSTANCE.

18 posted on 09/22/2003 5:09:27 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew ("Dream deep my three-times perfect ultrateen . . .")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
So, the author never says how old he figures the Earth and Solar System are, nor does he really say what he's driving at. There are always going to be unexplained anomalies when you weren't there to see something- it's the same in crime investigation. That didn't stop us from putting OJ, for example, on trial. Is this fellow saying we shouldn't investigate the universe- or what exactly?
20 posted on 09/22/2003 5:15:14 AM PDT by Prodigal Son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
I see...I see a thousand post thread in your near future.
23 posted on 09/22/2003 5:27:18 AM PDT by The Iguana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
As a person who believs in creation, one thing does puzzle me. How are we able to see the light from stars many thousands of light years away if the Universe is only 6,000 years old?
28 posted on 09/22/2003 5:35:33 AM PDT by twittle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Maybe some people evolve faster than others, and maybe it doesn't matter how old the Earth, and the formation of the universe was a one-time event...and we missed it....and scientists have to get over that.
29 posted on 09/22/2003 5:37:12 AM PDT by Consort
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
Ask Helen Thomas. She's been around since the earth was created.
33 posted on 09/22/2003 5:44:35 AM PDT by rintense
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
So much rides on this date of 4.6 billion years. The entire biological evolution story and most of modern geology depend on it.

Wrong. The theory of evolution by natural selection arose in the 1860's, with the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species. We didn't know the age of the Earth until the 1950's, when the wide variety (not just one isotope system) of radiometric dating procedures were developed. Darwin didn't have the faintest idea how old the Earth was -- he just knew it was at least millions of years old.

The list of “anomalies” in planetary science is a good example of why “creation science” is laughed at by most real scientists. Every one of the supposed “facts” are either wrong, misleadingly stated, or completely irrelevant.

Mercury should be stone dead but has a global magnetic field.

Magnetic fields don’t mean a planet is “alive” – it just means that some portion of the object has acquired some type of stable remnant magnetization. In Mercury’s case, this is probably a result of its relatively large iron core.

If Venus’ surface had a 4.6 billion year history, the first 90% has been obliterated.

So what? The same happens to be true of Earth and Io, only in those cases, the fractions are closer to 98% and 99.99%, respectively.

Earth’s magnetic field is decreasing at an alarming rate.

”Alarming to who? And so what if it is?

The Grand Canyon could have been carved in just the last few thousand years.

More like a couple of hundred thousand years, but even if I accept this estimate, what does that have to do with the age of the Earth?

The moon and meteorites contain short-lived radionuclides.

Yes, because short-lived nucleides are constantly created by cosmic ray bombardment of the lunar surface.

The moon should be stone dead, but shows evidence of activity today (transient lunar phenomena).

Not a single shred of evidence has ever emerged that these “transient events” relate to anything other than observer hallucination. And anyway, why should the Moon be “stone dead”?

Comets are burning up too fast (all the ones we know would be gone in 5000 years), and the hordes of spent bodies that should exist after 4 billion years cannot be found. Furthermore, the hypothetical Oort Cloud of comets could only contain 10% of earlier estimates.

Numbers pulled out of the air, but the highlighted phrase is the one that gets me – a lot of the “missing” comets have hit the planets, creating the heavily cratered surfaces we see throughout the Solar System, from Mercury to the satellites of the outer planets.

Meteorites are young, based on cosmic ray exposure.

Their exposure to cosmic rays is recent, but that doesn’t mean that the rockes themselves are young. Most meteorites have spent their existence deep within larger parent bodies, broken up through collision and tidal forces.

Some groups of asteroids have preferential spin orientations, that should have been randomized by now.

Then why are the satellites of the planets synchronously locked in rotation with their revolution periods around their primaries? Shouldn’t they have all been “randomized” by now?

Many asteroids are binary, but gravitational forces would tend to disrupt them in short order.

Asteroids are being constantly collided with, impacted, and re-assembled. At any given time, we only see a “snapshot” of the population. How many is “many”?

Assumed cratering rates on Mars could be way off the mark, casting into doubt a widely relied on method of estimating ages.

We use crater counts to estimate ages where we don’t have rocks to date – the Mars ages are tied to the lunar ones because we have lunar samples from known locations. Most of the “facts” in this list are way off the mark, casting doubt on its potential use for anything other than backup toilet paper.

Large areas of Martian bedrock are exposed, but should have been buried deep in dust by now.

Large areas of Earth’s bedrock are exposed too. So what?

Io has far more volcanic activity than can be explained by tidal heating.

In fact, the level of volcanic activity on Io is perfectly predicted by tidal heating theory. We know this because Io volcanism was predicted BEFORE the arrival of Voyager 1 in 1979.

Io and Europa are losing a ton of their mass every second.

They also gain mass by accretion of debris.

Europa might have active geyser activity even today.

So? What does this have to do with the age of the Solar System?

Enough. You get the picture. Half-truths and misleading concepts, presented as conundrums.

51 posted on 09/22/2003 6:15:11 AM PDT by Cincinatus (Omnia relinquit servare Republicam)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
Who created God?
Why don't we just come clean and be honest--NOBODY HAS A CLUE HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED!!! These things are beyond our grasp...Science is great but it will never explain the question of creation. Neither will any religion created by man. These are just things we use to help us sort out issues beyond our mental capacities.

Accept the fact that we know nothing, and we can stop this silly debate.
53 posted on 09/22/2003 6:15:53 AM PDT by Capitalism2003
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
I have a question. Did anyone watch a science show in which the question was asked how a certain type of radiation with a half life of mili-seconds ended up trapped in some types of granite? The rings left by the radiation were clearly evident in the granite and led to the conclusion that the granite formed almost instantaneously.

If so, was the question ever answered?
74 posted on 09/22/2003 6:48:58 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: bondserv
Nothing else in the solar system leads one to conclude such a huge date of 4.6 billion years.

You are vastly mistaken.

I'm working on a big project and don't have time to address each of your errors in detail, but just for fun let's look at a few items from your Big List of things that (you claim) "set upper limits much younger than" a few billion years for the solar system:

Earth’s magnetic field is decreasing at an alarming rate.

Wow, that old chestnut again. It has been debunked countless times over the past few decades, but creationists just keep trotting it out again. Yes, the Earth's magnetic field is decreasing. No, it is not decreasing at an "alarming" rate. No, that doesn't "prove" that the Earth must be younger than a few billion years old. The Earth's magnetic field doesn't just keep fading forever, it in fact "rises and falls" in a periodic fashion, and we're currently in one of its waning periods. There is irrefutable geologic evidence for this. Someday perhaps the creationists will finally crack open a textbook and learn a few basic things before they go tearing off on another "magnetic field" rant.

The Grand Canyon could have been carved in just the last few thousand years.

No it couldn't, but no need to quibble -- even if it could have, how exactly is that supposed to "prove" that the Earth can't be very old? Are you somehow under the impression that the Earth itself can't be older than the Grand Canyon? (The same goes for another favorite creationist "proof" about the age of Niagara Falls -- yes, Niagara Falls is indeed of rather recent vintage; but this in no way proves that the Earth itself must not be old.)

The moon and meteorites contain short-lived radionuclides.

...because they have no atmosphere and are exposed to cosmic rays, which form *new* short-lived radionuclides when they hit. This is also where most of the "new" Carbon-14 in the Earth's atmosphere comes from. Again, I invite creationists to try reading a textbook or two before they attempt another "scientific" analysis of something.

Io and Europa are losing a ton of their mass every second.

Presuming this is even true (and creationists have a bad habit of stating "facts" that simply are not the case), this means that Europa, the smaller of the two moons, would have lost a whopping one quarter of one percent (0.0025) of its mass during the last four billion years. I'm sorry, how was this supposed to "lead one to estimate much lower ages"? Why exactly would this "have to be str-r-r-r-r-etched by many orders of magnitude" in order "to fit the 4.6 billion year timeline"? Actually, instead of "leading one to estimate much lower ages", it instead leads me to conclude that creationists don't know how to use calculators.

Io has far more volcanic activity than can be explained by tidal heating.

...which is no problem because "tidal heating" is only *one* of several mechanisms driving volcanic activity. I refer you to that "textbook" thing again...

Europa might have active geyser activity even today.

That's nice. Here's a cookie. Again, there are many mechanisms which contribute to geyser activity even on billion+ year old moons.

Neptune is the farthest large planet but has the strongest winds, and shows evidence of seasonal activity.

Okay, I'll bite -- how do either of these observations (presuming they're true) suggest that Neptune must be "younger" than currently believed? In other words, how would being "younger" help better explain seasonal activity or stronger winds on Neptune than on the other gas giants? Oh, right, it doesn't... Ditto for many other items on your list.

Titan’s surface should be blanketed with half a mile of hydrocarbons by now, but large patches of bedrock ice are found.

Ever hear of a process called "erosion"? It's in those "textbook" thingies... Titan has an atmosphere denser than Earth's, and methane falls as liquid rain. Both would remove hydrocarbon solids from elevated areas and wash them down into lower-lying areas (and into the postulated methane oceans, if they exist), leaving large patches of exposed rock and water ice (which at Titan's temperatures would be permanent as rock itself). "Problem" solved using High School level knowledge. May the creationists someday rise to that level in their analysis.

And so on...

77 posted on 09/22/2003 6:51:18 AM PDT by Ichneumon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-26 next last

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson