Jewish and Christian leaders launch countermissionary campaign [Fighting "Jews for Jesus" people]

Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 27, 2003

[A.J.Armitage]

And that whole thing about common decent from Abraham is also irrelivant, right?

[Imal]

They need to be defended at every juncture. You should have called the police.

At the risk of being redundant, I just wanted to comment on this.

First, I am with you on the matter of preserving religious freedom, and God bless you for taking this stance. I agree 110% with your position on this.

If you read my long-winded narrative, you will hopefully agree that "disruptions" of this type do not warrant a call to police. As far as I know, both these guys were Jews, and both asserted their right to speak freely in the synagogue. Even if they were not Jews, there is no standing "gag order" against anyone in a Jewish house of assembly.

For obvious reasons, Jews are keenly aware of the need for religious freedom for everyone, regardless of their faith.

Yes, even "Christian Jews" are free to make their case, although I consider it very poor form to do it in this way, and felt compelled to say so. Targeting Jews specifically for conversion is just plain wrong, in my personal -- and well-informed -- opinion. But I understand why people feel compelled to do it, anyway.

I should point out, though, that peaking as a former Christian who is now a Jew (but wasn't at that time), I feel far less inhibited about throwing such "schmucks" out on their ears than my "purely Jewish" friends. A failing of mine that I am working to correct, through prayer, meditation and study.

Under Jewish law, however, I am as Jewish as Moses, so I also feel compelled to maintain my composure in the face of such insults, even if it runs counter to my "Christian heritage".

You can probably also understand why I normally avoid religious threads on FR like the Ten Plagues. :^)

[Imal]

And that whole thing about common decent from Abraham is also irrelivant, right?

Correct. There is no such thing as a "Jewish race". I was not born Jewish, but I am a Jew. I am not unusual, either.

Although most non-Jews may not realize it, people have been converting to Judaism for centuries. The classic example is Ruth the Moabite, a beloved Jewish matriarch and ancestor of King David, who was not born Jewish, but became a Jew by self-declaration and keeping God's laws:

"For wherever you go, I will go. Where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God will be my God." (Ruth 1:16)

There have been many periods in the history of the Jewish people where thousands of "gentiles" converted to Judaism and became Jews almost en masse, and they have been welcomed as a blessing. Frankly, I sometimes wonder how much of a blessing I myself might be to the Jewish people (dubious, at best :^), but I am proud to be Jewish, and that has everything to do with my people, not my race.

The notion of "Jewish ethnic purity" being some sort of goal of Judaism is a fallacy.

It is true that observant Jews want their sons and daughters to marry Jews, but race has nothing to do with it. Preserving the incredibly rich and ancient heritage, faith, teachings, philosophies, language and legacy of the Jewish people has everything to do with it.

This is not unique to Judaism, either. I know a few Catholics who don't want their daughters to marry non-Catholics. Does that make them racists?

[adam_az]

Christmas is celebrated on December 25, a date not mentioned in the New Testament. Jesus was probably actually born in the Spring. December 25 is the date the Persian and Roman god Mithras was born. It's also around the date of pagan solstice holidays. The Roman Mithras sabbath was Sunday, not Saturday as Jews practice it.

By 300 AD Mithraism and Christianity were both popular - Mithraism had at least a 900 year lead at that point - but Mithraism lost, and most of it's rituals were absorbed by Christianity, in order to make Christianity more palatable to pagans. Christmas rituals are warmed-over pagan rituals. Yule log is a druid ritual. Decorating trees, a druid ritual. Easter egg - pagan ritual. Bunny, pagan fertility symbol.


Jesus? Nope. Dionysus!

The resurrection myth goes back to the Sumerian creation epic, Enuma Elish. Osiris followers found salvation in death and his rebirth. 1,400 years earlier.

Krishna was born from a Virgin.

Frigga was impregnated by Odin and bore Balder, a healer who was to save mankind.

Baptism in water was already a common pagan ritual.

Mithras followers found salvation in the blood of a Bull.

Look, I know you can go and find some kind of churchy website that proposes to refute that Christianity and Mithraism or other pagan rites have anything in common, but you can also find web pages that say that Muhammad is really the last prophet, and other web pages that say they were both space aliens, if you look hard enough. There is quite a bit of scholarly research on this topic published outside the realm of "biblical archaeology," a phony science which starts with an unquestionable assumption based purely on faith and then selectively picks facts to support it.

My point here isn't to upset you. I'm not "anti-Christian" as I appreciate some (not all!) of the roles Christianity has played through the last two millenia. I don't care if you believe that either Jesus or Kermit the Frog is your messiah. It's your belief to have. My point is that Christianity is technically Judaized paganism which predates Christianity. It's rituals and stories are far from unique. Asserting that Christianity as practiced today has Judaic roots is only telling part of the story, asserting that it has PURELY Judaic roots is a flat out lie.

[adam_az]

That you think you can tell others who is in "breach of their covenant with God" And more so, that you think your God likes you to do so on his behalf. That is why I am chuckling.

Wouldn't that be the sin of pride? Isn't that what Jesus criticized the Pharisees for? In his own New Testament: "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" (Phili. 2: 3).

[adam_az]

I don't worship Socrates, Muhammed, or Aristotle, or Biblical prophets for that matter and I suspect neither do you. You do pray to Jesus though. Can you point me to any documents that Jesus wrote, explaining his beleifs in his own words? Or only what was written about him, mostly by people who never met they guy?

[adam_az]

I'm appalled that any Christian would resort to tactics like that. Although we have all known some people act without tact or respect for others out of whatever motive drives them. I doubt seriously that JFJ condoned such tactics. How do you even know the disrupters were really from JFJ?

Oh right, it must have been agent provocateurs dispatched by the Elders of Zion, right?

[Tribune7]

"Muslims for Kali,"

Yup.

[adam_az]

Where did you get your MA in Sanskrit?

[adam_az]

But what if Jesus Is Messiah? Would Jews then cease to be Jews if they then believed?
If the Messiah had come, I think He would have finished his job the first time around!

[Cindy]

[Nachum]

Which wouldn't have anything to do with the "if your mother is Jewish..." rule, would it?

The matrilinial descent rule for Judaism is as much nationalistic as religious. This, however, is not the source of the race business. Judaism and race is more of a form of epithet. It was/is used as a way to discriminate, ghetto-ize, and attack.

[mosby]

B'nai Brith Canada. Used to attend their fund-raising events. Don't anymore. Ultra-liberal on every major social issue. Not too subtle dislike of evangelical Christianity. Incredibly sanctimonious. I take no position on this absurd debate. Jews for Jesus are entitled to preach their message, B'nai Brith is entitled to oppose them. Why is there an issue here? However everyone should understand exactly what B'nai Brith is. I can guarantee you that they would nothing but disdain for Free Republic and the great majority of the people who post here.

[Concerned]

TOONCES WROTE: "...As a Messianic Jew that accepted Christ as his Lord and savior almost 30 years ago, I regularly witness to other Jews. Because I have Christ in my life does not mean that I have ceased to be a Jew. I am just a complete Jew whose Messiah has arrived."

AMEN! And Congratulations!

TOONCES ADDED: "...Conveying the concept of a Trinity to a practicing Jew is much akin to banging your head against a brick wall. It can be done, but it's gonna really hurt. It is a concept that is absolutely antithetical to Jewish teaching. The most essential of prayers, the Shma...in English for you non-Hebrew literate types...goes:"

TOONCES ADDED: "...Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is one Lord."

TOONCES ADDED: "...as in not three. Trust me it is a difficult concept to convey to someone that has been taught all their life that such an idea is heretical."

I was just recently trying to think of an EASY way to explain the Trinity and have the listener UNDERSTAND how it could be. Here goes:

(1) Do you believe that God is the most powerful being and can do and create anything? (Most say Yes...go on)

(2) Do you believe that God is one being, but in 3 forms or states of being? (If No, go on)

(3) Do you believe that God is at least as powerful and capable as his own creations? (Most say Yes...go on)

(4) Do you believe that God created water? (Most say yes...go on)

(5) What do you call H20, you know, the stuff that comes out of your faucet? (Everybody says Water...go on)

(6) What do you call H20 when you find it in your freezer, you know the stuff you cool off your drinks with? (Everybody says Ice...go on)

(7) What do you call H20 when you boil it? (Everybody says steam...go on)

(8) Well, how could that possibly be? I mean you just said that H20---the SAME SYMBOL for WATER---exists in THREE DIFFERENT FORMS OR STATGES OF BEING! If God created water to exist in three different states of being, WHY are you LIMITING GOD HIMSELF???

Think of God the FATHER as similar to the concept of H20 as ICE
Think of God the Son as similar in concept to H20 as WATER
Think of God the Holy Spirit to H20 as STEAM (or GAS).

If God can create H20 to exist in three states of being, yet STILL be the EXACT SAME chemical content, then SURELY, GOD HIMSELF CAN EASILY BE IN THREE DIFFERENT STATES OF BEING, can't He? (Most say they've never thought of it that way, but now, they understand the concept)

BTW, ask your Jewish friends (and other non-believers) how they explain Genesis 1: 26---"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...'." Just WHO is us???

[SauronOfMordor]

Anyway, if there were "Muslims for Kali," I'll believe just about any combination of religions.

There WERE "Muslims for Kali". The Thuggees of India, who worshipped Kali, had many Muslim members

[SauronOfMordor]

Conveying the concept of a Trinity to a practicing Jew is much akin to banging your head against a brick wall.

St Patrick found the shamrock a good illustrative tool. One plant, three leaves