Posted on 08/27/2003 2:00:45 PM PDT by yonif
What a strange relatiionship between Evangelicals and Jews. Evangelicals could stand a lot of education regarding the Jews, and, from my experience, Jews are even more in need of understanding what Evangelical Christians are all about.
As to "targeting specific groups": Jews look at evangelism efforts from a very cramped and restricted perspective. The missionary / evangelism enterprise of the evangelicals is massive, consisting of literally thousands of organizations spending many billions of dollars annually. The amount of money and effort spent on "Jewish evangelism" is, relative to the whole, miniscule. The organizations that focus on Jews (as opposed to, say those that focus on Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, Bhuddists, Taoists, lapsed "cultural christians, Quechuas, Paraguayan Guranas, etc,) are very few.
I grew up in a "Missionary" Evangelical church ( half the budget went to missionary and relief activity). Then, as now, the "jewish" agencies were always lamenting their tiny portion of the missionary pie that they subsisted on.
Add to this the fact that most "jewish missionary" agencies spend the bulk of their time NOT evangelizing, but educating gentile christians as to the jewish roots of their faith, and promoting trips to Israel, and you can see that the outreach to jews is definitely a minor emphasis. If half of 1% of missionary effort "targets jews," I'd be shocked.
That Jews see themselves as at ground zero of the missionary effort is completely crazy, indicative of the (reasonable ) fears Jews have stemming from an earlier age when christians (mostly non-evangelicals) engaged in coercive "conversions." But it doesn't comport with present facts. I'm not sure, other than this, why "targeted" evangelism is considered bad (please enlighten me). To evangelize Koreans, you speak Korean, To evangelize Portuguese, you speak portuguese,... so what?
You're assuming the conclusion. There is nothing deceptive about Jews for Jesus. There is something deceptive about being a Jew and not being for Jesus. The sceptre passed from Judah nearly two thousand years ago, so either the Messiah was Jesus or he never came, and Jews should disband their religion as having been based on false prophecies of a messiah who never came. The only way a person can continue to be a Jew is to believe that the Messiah did come when the prophet Daniel predicted, and the only conceivable candidate for messiahship at that time was Jesus.
That you think you can tell others who is in "breach of their covenant with God" And more so, that you think your God likes you to do so on his behalf. That is why I am chuckling.
I'm not sure of the point of your question. The same could be asked about Socrates or Mohammed, or most of the Biblical prophets. All I know is that the followers of Jesus were willing to die for what they said they remembered him saying. Also, we have no better-attested documents of the ancient world than the Bible, including the New Testament. Hundreds of VERY ancient manuscripts. The same cannot be said of, say, Aristotle.
You might be less sanguine if Jews came into your Christian church during Sunday services and tried to get you to renounce Jesus. Evangelism takes many forms, most of which I have no problem with, but JfJ is out of line and patently dishonest about who they are and what they do.
Liars are the agents of Satan, not God.
I see. But in this case, I think you either have to conclude God isn't fulfilling very specific promises, or Israel is in "breach of their covenant". You might conclude the breach is other than failing to recognize Jesus, but I would be curious what alternative you come up with. I don't remember history accounting for a lot of idolatry amoung Israel in the first century. So if not idolatry, then what did they do to incur God's wrath?
And as for my telling people. I can point to many verses that say to do just that. Mostly what I'm doing is reminding people of what God said.
I'm appalled that any Christian would resort to tactics like that. Although we have all known some people act without tact or respect for others out of whatever motive drives them. I doubt seriously that JFJ condoned such tactics. How do you even know the disrupters were really from JFJ?
I hate multiple choice religion. Seriously, I just disagree with the parameters you put on other people's faith, trying to make it fit with your own personal understanding.
I asked, they answered.
Joe, you're treading on very dangerous ground with this. People can only live by their (hopefully informed) conscience. It is right to engage people to think about Jesus and who he is (including Jews), and to pursuade as best you can, but when you tell people they "should disband" you're encouraging the Jew-haters who will pick up on this, but fail to pick up on the love and compassion we are to exhibit to all, including the Jews. History is full of exactly this sort of thing, much to the shame of those of us who use the name "christian."
It took the Jews centuries to stop with the worship of the Baals and images and live out their belief in One God. But God is patient. It has taken even more centuries for the christians to understand that persecution of the Jews is wrong, and that is one of our most serious sins against God. But God is patient, and hopefully we are seeing now a way that we can disagree without disrepecting, persuade without persecuting. It's time for a new paradigm without sacrificing the universal message of the Gospel.
Keep close to Jesus.
I don't know a whole lot about JFJ, but I have to believe that such tactics under the review of a larger group of Christian believers would be dismissed as rude and disrespectful.
I suspect you had some rogue elements.
".....this is not bout free speech."
This is the part I find wierd. These two statements are utterly incompatible. If you don't have the right to attempt to persuade people about fundamental issues ( "who is God?" " who are we?" "do we matter?" "why?"), then we do not have freedom of speech at all. So what does Ms. Wilner mean by "we have an absolute right....?
The most important freedom of speech is freedom of religious speech, because it has to do with the most basic, fundamental issues.
So you think I should just be quite and mind my own business. Let other's believe what they want. Regardless of whether it squares with God's word.
To me, that's like letting a blind man walk off a cliff and not warning him. To remain quiet is a failure to love.
Your admonishment to Joe is well-considered. Those who practice the "One True Faith" and label all others as false do indeed tread on dangerous ground.
The only "One True Faith" is that which leads you to God. Anything which does not lead you to God is false, and should be avoided. This is a fact that many well-meaning Christians do not understand, although with prayer, understanding of all things is possible.
When I talk to God, God answers, and never lies to me. No, I'm not psychotic, I just finally learned how to pray.
If a matter is not clear, ask God about it. While the answers may not always come as quickly and clearly as we may wish, I promise you: no prayer goes unanswered!
Keep close to God.
Perhaps, but I was in a unique position to know what was going on, as it turns out. If you're curious as to what that position was, I will tell you, but I try to keep discussions about me personally to a minimum on the Free Republic, because they are usually nothing more than fodder for personal attacks.
But this topic is near and dear to my heart, so say the word if you want more specifics.
Dan, I personally know David Brickner, the current head of the Jews for Jesus organization nationally and Jan Moskowitz of the Chicago group (though I haven't seen either of them in 2 years). This doesn't make any sense. Are you sure it's the JFJorganization?
In the name of preserving religious freedom in America, you are failing in your patriotic duty if you have not filed a lawsuit over these events. I can get you a pro bono lawyer.
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