XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Long Cut]

Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: no data
Barrel length: no data
Weight: 2.67 kg empty
Rate of fire: no data
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM-29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

The XM8 will be quite similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM-29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the Picatinny rail.

Technical description. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. The key differences are the NATO-standard magazine housing that will accept M16-type magazines, the set of Picatinny rails on the forend, telescoped buttstock of adjustable length and a different scope, mounted on the Picatinny rail, built into the detachable carrying handle.

[Shooter 2.5]

I think the major problem with the Cooper course is the concept of the rifle itself. I don't know of any rifle that's capable of doing that. Now if we're talking about some sort of firearm that mostly resembles a artillery gun mount, that would be different.
I don't think you could do it in Texas. We have too much heat mirage and our soil drifts so much my house isn't that stable.
I won't even mention the wind.

[PoorMuttly]

Hey...there ARE other websites out there...!

As long as I don't Post...I won't get lost.

Noticed lots of talk about breathing and O2 levels in the blood...but none about slowing one's heart-rate down (like James Coburn's "Flint"), which one discovers in prone, .22RF target rifle shooting. One has to time shots at the still part...or it's like shooting a black-powder cannon off of a sailing ship (oooooo Muttly...you could wear your Admiral's hat with the big feather, and carry your cutlass and flintlock pistols, too). NOW I've done it. Muttly BAD. BAD Muttly...BAD !

[Long Cut]

"...Muttly makes a very good "Gun Shop Porch dog," you know..."

Good boy, Muttly. Mrs. Cut will make up a batch of her homemade dog biscuits for you. (No lie, man...she really does make our dog's biscuits herself. Beagle Cut goes crazy for them, too.)

[Lurker]

You might be able to pull it off with 2 SMLEs. Maybe....

L

[TEXASPROUD]

Sounds like you got a new game in town. Have fun.

[bc2]

"I've twice been hit by the short assault rifle versions of the 7,62, and was quite uninterested in aggravating anyone. In one instance I was hit in the left hand... The second time was like being hit with a baseball bat, and I don't recall a thing beyond that"

Archy, I assume you're dead serious. In the past month that I've had my AK I've had the oppertunity to shoot it twice so far (it's been damned cold) and I've put just about 400 rounds through it. A fine weapon. I have no idea how accurate it is past about 60 meters or so because it's been too cold to measure off distance and our fair weather targets are buried by snow (I love NY). Basically I've just nailed tree stumps at about 60 meters or so, I guess. A really simple system that is easy to maintain so far and seems to be pretty solid. As long as nothing cracks, breaks, falls off, locks, jams, etc.. I should be fine. I'm mechanically retarded for the most part and although I like to make guns go BANG BANG, I'm still learning about how they work. Certainly no amature gunsmith here.

But as for getting shot with one, that is not something I would like to think about. I told you what my father's reaction to the rifle was the first time he saw it. He was pretty startled that 30 years later I would be holding the same rifle that had killed his friends in Vietnam. If hollow-point 7.62x39 can blow through a 10-12" tree stump at 60 yards, I don't want to think about what it's gonna do to a person's torso. Good Lord, the exit wound must be about the size of a half-dollar. How did you take a round in the hand and not lose it? I hope you don't think this is an insulting or morbid question, but I have always wondered what it's like to get shot. I would assume it feels something along the lines of a baseball bat hit and a wicked burn. Damn, just thinking about it sends shivers down my spine!

Well, I'm off to buy another 500 rounds of 7.62... BLOAT! Gonna nail more tree stumps tomorrow after work. As soon as the weather warms up enough and I get the chance, we're going to measure off about 100 yards on our "range" and I'll be able to test the accuracy with some, err, accuracy :)

Any more (than you've already given me) thoughts on the Romainian AK's = WSAR-10? (the ones that have been machined to accept 30 round double-stack mags)

[PoorMuttly]

YES !!! Muttly EATS dog biscuits. What a fortuitous coincidence !

Wow Lurker...Muttly LIKE the 2 SMLE's idea. I bet archy's already done it, too !

I don't remember if Enfields have that "2-stage" military trigger...sort of a bump, beyond which it shoots. (oh right...I shot one in the yard last week. Oops.) It would probably slow one down...but is sure nice to know when the take-up is gone, and it will let go next. Like a set trigger..only internal, and you can squeeze right through it for less precise, faster shots.

[Squantos]

Futile.....only a game......But dang fun to play none the less.

Stay safe !

[Lurker]

It's been said of the SMLE it's the only bolt action rifle that's been mistaken for a machine gun by those on the receiving end.

Conversely, the M60 is the only machine gun to be mistake for a bolt action rifle by those on the other end.

L

[PoorMuttly]

SMLE bolts feel like they're packed with warm butter.

(of course, M. has to relate everything to food, eventually)

Sexy Bayonets, too. (hey, wasn't that the name of a band..?)

[Lurker]

Your analogy is a fine one. (good dog!) I have an Ishapore SMLE in 7.62 NATO I picked up for about a hundred bucks last year. I wish I'd bought a dozen of them.

It's a darn fine shooter. I can crank through a magazine of 10 rounds nearly as fast as I can shoot my M1A.

I took it to a CMP shoot last summer, and all the rangemasters except one started laughing when I pulled it out of the case. "You'll never even place with that antique piece of junk!" they said.

One older vet came over to me and said "You know how to shoot that thing son?"

I said "I think so, sir."

"Don't worry. You'll do just fine."

"I intend to, sir."

Well, I placed third in the informal little shoot beating more than one person shooting an AR vundergun variant.

I was expecially pleased when I placed second in the rapid fire portion of the event.

After the formal part of the shoot, there were guys and gals lined up to shoot my 'antique piece of junk'.

Like I said. I wish I'd bought a dozen of them.

Regards,

L

P.S. I think you'd make a fine gun store porch dog.

[Long Cut]

Hey, if you like the SMLE Lee-Enfield action, check out post # 271 on this thread. Gibbs Rifle Company (link is at the post) has a bunch of them, and prices are simply too low to avoid if one is an SMLE fan.

[Lurker]

Unfortunately, they are all 'unavailable' now.

Those are the Ishapore 2A SMLEs originally brought in by Navy Arms in New Jersey. They sold hundreds of them so I hear. Gibbs bought a bunch, cleaned them up, chrome plated them, and sold 'em out so I hear.

I spent a week or so refinishing some old drill stocks I got from a fellow freeper (thanks noumenon), and then picked up a composite sporter stock and a scope mount for it. Result? One damn fine sporter-scout type rifle with a 10 round mag chambered for a serious cartridge.

As Muttley says, the action is like butter and the bore was mint when I received mine. I doubt they were ever fired. From some research I've done via the net, apparently they aren't simply rechambered .303 Brit rifles but were completely reengineered for 7.62 x 51mm and were manufactured using modern steel.

All I know is I got a damn fine rifle.

Regards,

L

[archy]

"I've twice been hit by the short assault rifle versions of the 7,62, and was quite uninterested in aggravating anyone. In one instance I was hit in the left hand... The second time was like being hit with a baseball bat, and I don't recall a thing beyond that"

Archy, I assume you're dead serious. In the past month that I've had my AK I've had the oppertunity to shoot it twice so far (it's been damned cold) and I've put just about 400 rounds through it. A fine weapon. I have no idea how accurate it is past about 60 meters or so because it's been too cold to measure off distance and our fair weather targets are buried by snow (I love NY). Basically I've just nailed tree stumps at about 60 meters or so, I guess. A really simple system that is easy to maintain so far and seems to be pretty solid. As long as nothing cracks, breaks, falls off, locks, jams, etc.. I should be fine. I'm mechanically retarded for the most part and although I like to make guns go BANG BANG, I'm still learning about how they work. Certainly no amature gunsmith here.

Not to worry. As you go along, you'll pick up enough familiarity at it to get by. And the AK both is particularly famed for requiring a minimum of such attention, and foir being pretty simple to deal with when it infrequently does.

But as for getting shot with one, that is not something I would like to think about. I told you what my father's reaction to the rifle was the first time he saw it. He was pretty startled that 30 years later I would be holding the same rifle that had killed his friends in Vietnam. If hollow-point 7.62x39 can blow through a 10-12" tree stump at 60 yards, I don't want to think about what it's gonna do to a person's torso. Good Lord, the exit wound must be about the size of a half-dollar. How did you take a round in the hand and not lose it? I hope you don't think this is an insulting or morbid question, but I have always wondered what it's like to get shot. I would assume it feels something along the lines of a baseball bat hit and a wicked burn. Damn, just thinking about it sends shivers down my spine!

Okay, I'll give you a short but more detailed account of how the two seperate instances went. In the first, we took fire from across a cleared area of about 300-400 meters, from a treeline generally sloping away from us to the latter distance and slightly uphill. There was minimal cover for us, and those who opened up on us from a distance were trying to convince us to come no further, I think, rather than really trying to cut us up in a close-range ambush, making it probable that they were few in number, assigned to a rearguard delaying operation.

I was behind a little rise of ground and armed with an M3 greasegun and 15 or so magazines carried mostly in a GI buttpack on my belt in back, with 3 *right-away* magazines in a GI pouch on the front side. The first shots that opened up were very short, professional bursts of 3 or 4 shots, possibly from an RPD or RPK, or something similar, such as the Vietnamese TUL-1 version of the RPK. They landed nowhere near me, but everyone hit the deck, and I was pretty well out of range anyway. I was pretty happy with the mound ahead of me [NOT an anthill...] and even had a little trenchlike depression I could stretch out prone in, facing about 45 degrees toward that treeline. And wondering if those folks had a 60mm mortar or 57mm recoilless rifle.

There were 8 of us. We were taking an occasional single shot [SKS?] alternated with a short burst every now anad again. And some of the single shots sounded different from the others- maybe from a longer [24-inch] barrelled RPK, maybe from a Czech model 58 rifle, which a few of had turned up in our area, using a different/ slightly longer round than the AK.

I didn't figure I'd hit anything, but had plenty of ammo and figured I might as well contribute to the festivities. I kept my three mags in front right where they were just in case I needed a reload in a hurry. I pulled a couple from my bag in back, laid them out in front of me. I tilted the gun about 45 degrees and tapped off a 3-shot burst; I'd been an instructor on the greasegun and though the shooting was at the maximum range onbe would reach, the .45 slugs would do a fine job plunging down at that range if they hit. And the sound of them crashing through the woods coming close would likely be unsettling to anyone on the receiving end of them. I wend through a couple of magazines' worth that way, trying to walk my hits in near where I'd seen muzzleflashes or movement in the greenery. Tap, bangbangbang. Tap, bangbangbang. Tap, bangbangbang. Change magazine. Tap, bangbangbang.

I was getting down there on the third or fourth burned off that way when I very clearly saw a guy at the facing edge of the treeline, and hoped I'd have enough left to do some good. I let 3 go his way, and saw them impact maybe 75 yards short. I adjusted a little and got within about 20 feet of him, and it was time to change magazines. I reached up for another of the mags I'd laid out in front of me and felt my hand slapped away from the magazine I'd been reaching for, and felt a slight burning sensation.

Looking at the palm of my hand, there was a little red hole with blood coming out of it, right where the meaty pad of the thumb muscles flattens out against the palm, about an inch in from the web between the thunb and first finger, left hand. Ow. OwOwOw!

Not surprisingly, there was also blood coming out a hole in the back of my hand too, between the thumb web and the bony knob on the left wrist behind the thumb. The blood was getting over everything, and generally making a mess. I was aware of other rounds hitting fairly close to me, so kept down as much as I could, and dug out my first aid dressing from its pouch. I put it on the exit side and tied it in place, and the result was that the entrance wound bled worse. I was thinking about tearing off a shirt sleeve and had rolled one down when I got another aid dressing tossed to me- I later found out that a five or six-shot burst had kicked up a neat little string of hits against my little protective berm, and the guys who saw it said it looked like I'd been hit dead center, and were relieved to see me moving.

Around this point the M79 gunner with us had opened up, and the blooper was about the ideal tool for the job at hand. I got the second dressing on, elevated my hand after pouring half a canteen full of water on it to try to flush away some of the mess, and drank the rest- I was REALLY thirsty from all the activity. The three or four guys firing on us, MAYBE five, pretty well decided not to mess with taking a near hit from the M79 and pulled back deeper into the woods, and the firing quit- they'd either rehearsed breaking off contact or figured we'd been delayed as long as they'd been told to keep us busy; trhey could have been low on ammo too. I had a guy came up to see how I was, he reworked the ties on my sloppy bandaging, and tried to not get my blood all over him. We radioed in a report, had a chopper [loach] came out to see if he could spot our little playmates from above and couldn't. They offered to drop a crewman off if I really, really needed a ride back to our medics, but aside from feeling a little chilly, and slightly dizzy I was okay, except for needing clean fatigues that didn't draw flies. We were only about 8 klicks out from an artillery firebase, so we headed for it and within an hour, I had a medic look at my hand and he decided he really couldn't do much better. I got a couple of shots [penicillin and tetracycline antibiotics to prevent infection, a tetanus booster just in case, and an eighth-grain of morphine for the pain, which really wasn't that bad, it felt more like a bad burn.

Now, 36 years later, there's barely any sign of the entrance other than a slight discoloured spot on my palm, about the size of a pencil eraser. On the back of my hand, also barely visible, is a little wart-shaped oucker that sort of looks like a cigarette got put out on the back of my hand. I didn't lose any mobility or use of my fingers, and most of the followup dressings were plain old 4x4 sponges and Neomyacin salve to keep the bugs out. I got light duty for a month while it healed, and all's well that ended well. But just as easily, it could have come in from a little different angle and rattled its way between both bones of the arm coming out at the elbow, or hit right where the fingers join the hand, where the muscles and nerve clusters are, That would have been a LOT worse.

I never had our battalion surgeon treat it, just the medic, and never got a purple heart out of it. Neither do I really care to have that advertisement on my chest that I was too dumb to keep my hand out of the way of flying lead/ forgot to duck.

The story behind my other, later, worse hit is lengthier and not as funny in respect to my fumbled attempts at self first-aid. I got hit and woke up 4 days later, not remembering a thing in between. But there are a couple of lessons from my first experience at taking a hit, one of whgich is to do what you can for yourself and don't wait for someone else to do a better job of it- and if you haven't had a really good first aid course that deals with penetrating wounds/ through-and-through GSW, you'd be well advised to do so. Aside from amputations or major arterial seperations, even fumbled treatment can save you from bleeding to death or going into shock.

I'm off to buy another 500 rounds of 7.62... BLOAT! Gonna nail more tree stumps tomorrow after work. As soon as the weather warms up enough and I get the chance, we're going to measure off about 100 yards on our "range" and I'll be able to test the accuracy with some, err, accuracy :)

Good move. Try some water-filled 2 or 3 liter-pop bottles, up close at first, out 50 meters at first, then out to a hundred. When you get that good, try water-filled [frozen is fun!] sodapop cans or beer cans. Bowling pins are good too, if you can hit one of them better than half the time with an AK at a hundred yards or so, you're doing pretty good.

It's probably still a little cold in your neck of the woods, but you might want to add a little light grease to the operating rod rails and receiver guide rails and the face of the hammer where it rubs against the carrier as it pushes the hammer back to cock it. The white Lubriplate grease used on M1 Garands works well for that, but even a Teflon-based lube like Break-Free or RemOil will do while it's cold out.

And get yourself a couple of spare magazines; 5 or a half-dozen is a good start. At least one more than what you have now.... You might find one of the Polish black synthetic 30-rounders kind of neat, and for just ten bucks, one's worth a try, at least.

Any more (than you've already given me) thoughts on the Romainian AK's = WSAR-10? (the ones that have been machined to accept 30 round double-stack mags)

The WSARs are pretty good, a close cousin to the SAR-2 my girlfriend favors. I favor the heavier milled versions like the Chinese Type 56 AK47s I'm especially used to, but there's nothing wrong with the stamped receiver AKMs or WASRs at all. And it's kind of handy having that little rail on the side for a telescopic or electrooptical sight. You thought about a low power scope or Kobra red dot unit? But in any event, get yourself an extra magazine or two. At least.

[archy]

Your analogy is a fine one. (good dog!) I have an Ishapore SMLE in 7.62 NATO I picked up for about a hundred bucks last year. I wish I'd bought a dozen of them. It's a darn fine shooter. I can crank through a magazine of 10 rounds nearly as fast as I can shoot my M1A.

I took it to a CMP shoot last summer, and all the rangemasters except one started laughing when I pulled it out of the case. "You'll never even place with that antique piece of junk!" they said.

I'm just as fond of the Number 3 Mark I S.M.L.E, version, just as fast, or the Number 4, the sights of which work a little better with my tired old eyes. But I got my kid an Indian Ishapore SMLE in .303 for his 12th birthday, and that was almost a decade ago. Beware the shooter, like him, with that one rifle, who knows exactly what it'll do.

[archy]

Wow Lurker...Muttly LIKE the 2 SMLE's idea. I bet archy's already done it, too !

The British did not issue a second spare 10-shot magazine for their troops' Enfields, preferring to top things up with 5-shot charger *stripper clips.* But I have a second 10-round magazine both for my Savage #4 and my L42A1 7,62 Enfield, as my kid does for his SMLE. The .303 Mark VIII ball cartridge isn't the preferred load for that sport [try a handload using the Sierra .311 dia. 174 gr. HP boattail MatchKing] and see what happens. I don't have access to a 1000-meter range right now, but I can sure practice at 600 on a halfsize target....

-archy-/-

[Lurker]

I bought a second 2A mag for my Ishapore. It doesn't fit. Where did you get yours?

I'd really like a spare, JIC you know?

I'm loathe to think that Mr. Cooper missed something, but I'll bet the right guy with a couple of SMLEs could pull off his challenge.

Nice collection BTW.

Like I said, I shoulda bought a dozen of 'em.

Regards,

L

[Who is John Galt?]

I don't remember if Enfields have that "2-stage" military trigger...sort of a bump, beyond which it shoots.

I believe the majority of them (No.1s & No.4s) have a "2-stage" trigger. My 'salvaged' antique Lee-Enfield Carbine Mk.I (manufactured during the reign of Queen Victoria, God bless her ;>) had a single-stage trigger - until I swapped the original trigger & sear for No.1 parts (I prefer a "2-stage" trigger, and the No.1 parts actually lightened the trigger pull by about two-thirds... ;>)

[Who is John Galt?]

One damn fine sporter-scout type rifle with a 10 round mag chambered for a serious cartridge.

If I remember correctly, the highly-respected inventor of the "scout rifle" concept recommends the No.4 Lee-Enfield as a utility/pseudo-scout rifle - and notes that it is fine 'as is' for 'government work.' (Interestingly enough, the original Lee-Enfield Carbine was mighty close to being a scout rifle 'as issued'... ;>)

[Who is John Galt?]

Given that most of the folks who will be reading your posts are American civilians, rather than government-small-arms-procurement-specialists (either foreign or domestic, past or present ;>), allow me to offer a few opinions.

Problems with the FAL that I have observed in troop service are...

The needs of American gun owners are somewhat different than those of professional military organizations of any type, as I'm sure you would admit.

;>)

1. Extractor breakages.

I've been a member of the FAL 'community' for about 15 years. Most of the folks I've been in contact with own FALs they've built themselves, using well-worn surplus FAL parts kits. I've never - not even once - heard of a broken extractor, even from folks that run thousands of rounds through their FALs. If you did suffer a broken extractor, parts are cheap: I've got an L1A1 bolt/carrier assembly that headspaces the same as my Israeli bolt & bolt carrier - and I only paid $20 for the lot. Why keep a spare extractor when you can have a spare bolt/carrier assembly?

2. Ejector breakages.

Ditto - I've never seen or heard of one, and FAL parts are cheap.

3. Sights. The metric FAL requires a tool for sight adjustment.

Everyone I know just buys the tool, dials in the sight for whatever ammo they purchased (in 1,000-round bulk lots ;>), and leaves the sights alone. No problem.

4. Stocks and handguards

I prefer the Israeli wood furniture: if the wood handguards break (something I've never heard of happening ;>), you still have the steel 'grills' underneath - no different functionally than the G-1 forearms. If you're worried about breaking the wood and burning your pinkies, get a 'chicken mitt.' Or use plastic furniture. If the wood buttstock breaks (something else I've never, ever heard of happening ;>), "just take your shirt off, tie a bandanna around your head, and shoot from the hip!"

In summary (and in addition ;>), the FAL is easy to build at home; it is cheaper than much of the competion; it is just as reliable as much of the competition; FAL parts are cheaper & more readily available than most of the competition; and FAL magazines are cheaper than most of the competition. For the price of ONE M1A, for example, you can probably build or buy TWO FALs. For the price of only FOUR new M1A (M-14) military surplus magazines, you can buy FOUR new FAL mags - PLUS 1,000 rounds of 7.62 NATO ammo.

If you've got money to burn & want a nice target gun, consider the M1A or SR-25/AR-10. If you're willing to gamble on the "angry beavers" at Century (and some folks do win ;>), get a CETME. If you want an affordable, reliable, 7.62 battle rifle (with a forged-steel, FN-licensed receiver, instead of folded sheet metal ;>), look for an IMBEL-receivered FAL...

"FAL - The Free World's Right Arm"

(My opinion - your mileage may vary. Flame away... ;>)