XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Long Cut]

Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: no data
Barrel length: no data
Weight: 2.67 kg empty
Rate of fire: no data
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM-29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

The XM8 will be quite similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM-29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the Picatinny rail.

Technical description. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. The key differences are the NATO-standard magazine housing that will accept M16-type magazines, the set of Picatinny rails on the forend, telescoped buttstock of adjustable length and a different scope, mounted on the Picatinny rail, built into the detachable carrying handle.

[Future Snake Eater]

I just stumbled onto this thread. Awesome pics, man, very cool stuff!

[archy]

I just stumbled onto this thread. Awesome pics, man, very cool stuff!

I'll make it a point to ping you to further posts along the same lines, and in the meantime, you might want to do a little recon along previous articles posted with the keywords bang or miltech. And if you're looking at future employment as a Snake Eater [presumably 2nd Lieutenant type, one each] a couple of private messages back and forth are likely also called for. I may have something for you, young [future] kay-dett....

-archy-/-

[archy]

Aw rats, I #$@%* the links. Try here: keyword bang and keyword miltech.

-archy-/-

[Future Snake Eater]

Sounds terrific. I'm being commissioned in May into the infantry, and I have two years to have some fun there before I get shuffled off to Signal Corps (unless I'm able to wrangle a stay in the infantry). From there I can volunteer for SF as an O2(P). Right now that is my intention, so I'll just have to reevaluate my family/professional situation around that time.

In the meantime I can soak in all the interesting info/pics/stories from the resident Special Ops guys on FR!

[LibKill]

Looks good, the proof will be in the fighting (unfortunately that is how things work out).

Please add me to your ping list.

[LibKill]

The AK series is a weapon system to be reckoned with.

The big problem is "It wasn't invented here"

Truth, noone gets 500meter acuracy out of this beast. But, it fires every time the trigger is pulled.

What grunt could ask for more?

[archy]

The AK series is a weapon system to be reckoned with. The big problem is "It wasn't invented here"

Truth, noone gets 500meter acuracy out of this beast. But, it fires every time the trigger is pulled.

What grunt could ask for more?

I could tell you a few requests some of the depraved grunts I know would make, better reserved for young ladies of questionable repute and limited personal squeamishness.

But if you'd care to join me on some fairly windless day where the targets are half a kilometer away, I'll show you what can be done to a human-sized target with a RPK and an SVD. And it's no matter of any great expertise on my part; I expect you'll be able to ventilate one just as handily.

[Criminal Number 18F]

Stevens's and Ezell's The Black Rifle... Arrgggghhh. About 15 years ago I lent my copy to a young gun nut on Cape Cod. Never saw him or it again.

Fans of the FAL (which has its pros, but is unmaintainable except by a first-world military with good training and logistics) can see the US T48 version in the Springfield Armory Museum, which is accessible if you find in Boston, Albany, or Hartford and have time for a day trip. If you are a sports fan, the Basketball Hall of Fame is in the same city (I have stayed for a month at the hotel that shares its parking lot without managing to see it... basketball... paugh. But some of you must like it and the displays are supposed to be good).

I am always entertained in these threads by the way that everybody who has ever picked up a rifle, which ought to be every male American, but unfortunately isn't, is an expert on small arms.

I am mostly happy with the issued arms. Contrary to most postings in anonymous chatrooms by boastful "SEALs" and whatnot, the M4A1 works pretty well; it is probably the best balance of weight and effect out there, and I'm told by the guys in J4 that all the coalition SOF came begging for them, including some equipped with G36s.

Still, if I could bring back one weapon from history it would be the M1A1 TSMG. Every once in a while I rent one at a range just to be master of all I survey. If everybody had to do it twice a year we'd probably have a massive outbreak of men acting like men, taking responsibility, protecting the helpless, and all that historical stuff. It's heavy and it's conceptually out of date, but JTT and his guys really produced a righteous machine.

It seems to me that decent weapons have been produced by committees and corporations, but excellent weapons have each always borne the stamp of an individual man.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[Squantos]

I got to burn up some ammo with one of those in the foreign materials intel school behind the fence at Aberdeen MD. Also had a few in our midst while I was at Anderson AFB in Guam that were part of an old cache from WWII. Most the the machinegun events at Knob Creek are won by the TSMG for a reason..... fine tool IMO.

As to the M4 w/ a M203 attached I never had complaints. I carried an earlier version also called the XM177 and the GAU5/AA that we mated with an M148. My favorite is still the M1A/M14.......I carried that most of the time but had the M4/203 combo available . The M1A was a speciality tool for us as we used it for a process called SMUD in EOD. I prefered to carry it all the time .

Hope yer well........

Stay safe

[Travis McGee]

I was just at the SHOT Show, and met some very interesting folks. The most interesting was Sgt. K____ E_______, of the 5th SFG. He is the chief sniper for the SF's middle east QRF, which has gone through several name changes lately. K.E. has done 4 tours in several ME countries since 9-11, and knows first hand where of he speaks. He personally carries an SR-25 in 7.62, this is sort of like an AR-10 with a SIR-type quad rail mount forward. It sports a big (looks like) 8X15 or so Leupold on top. The night scope mounts forward on the rail when needed. A fairly bulky IR laser/illuminator is on the right rail. A Harris bipod is forward.

I met him because he was at the SOCOM sniper competition last week, and came in 4th (against bolt guns) with his combat-proven SR-25. The folks who beat him had the product of the booth I was strap-hanging in on the butts of their rifles, and he wanted one. That's how I met him. He was out at SHOT looking for team gear. (Kasey Beltz of Accu-Shot liked my book enough that he invited me to sell my books out of it. Was I lucky or what?) Thanks Kasey!

[Accu-Shot is an up-down mono-pod that attaches to the standard swivel mount on the back of most rifles. The winners at the SOCOM shoot had them, and K.E. wants them for his QRF company's snipers, that's how we met.]

Anyhoooo.... Getting to the point. K.E.'s SF company has racked up beoucoups missions of the CQB variety, taking down structures from the outside, and killing all the bad guys inside. He moves close behind the entry team, he is not a distant stand-off kind of sniper. He ends up using his .308 SR-25 for CQB. (He uses the flipped up lens caps of his big scope as his "battle sights" for inside work.)

He goes in with the entry guys, because he says it's very common that as a structure is secured, they will take rifle fire from other buildings several hundred yards away. The M-4 guys can't do much to suppress that fire, but his SR-25 quickly puts a stop to it.

In fact, he says that with the IR illuminator, his spotter can see the "trace" of his bullets. The boat tail end of a Sierra Match King is shiny brass, and it reflects back the IR illumination, and is seen in the NODs as a clear green light.

Now, on to the main point: he is adamant that 5.56 out of an M-4 is not an adequate round. He says that he cannot count the times a bad guy has been stitched 3-4-5 times across the chest, has crumpled down, been bypassed, and then recovered and fired again at the SFs. They DO NOT TRUST the 5.56 to kill a man or put him down definitively in a fast-paced CQB environment. K.E. says "308 kills 'em, 556 wounds 'em." He says the current 556 out of an M-4 makes "ice pick wounds."

At this point, his SF CRF company is attempting ad-hoc piecemeal to cobble together a full loadout of 6.8mm uppers. He laughs about begging for more 6.8mm uppers to "T&E" which is in fact code for putting them to immediate use in combat.

Another visitor to the booth at another time was an older gentleman from Crane Indiana, a govt. small arms ordnance type. He says the Army is NOT putting in any serious quantity orders for 6.8mm uppers. He says the SFs are doing this all on their own, begging for scraps and odds and ends on their own. This confirms what K.E. says about begging for "T&E" 6.8mm uppers.

Apparently the Army doesn't want to hear what the SF guys think about the 5.56. They use it frequently in CQB, and have NO faith in it. Not when you and the bad guy are in the same room or hall or stairwell. It might suit "Big Army" when the enemy is not so close, but at room distance it's not working, according to K.E.

They want the 6.8s even with greatly reduced mag capacity, a sign of their strong desire to dump the 5.56mm. The ordnance guy from Crane (K.E and him were never at the booth at the same time) pointed out that the 6.8 may not feed reliably from a 5.56 mag. The double stack mag is designed to work tightly packed with rounds touching tops and bottoms. Spaced out in a mag, half way between double and single stacked, the rounds are pushed hard outward, causing binding. That was a point the ordnance man made, that K.E. didn't mention.

Sorry for going on and on, but I thought you guys would appreciate hearing this story right from the mouth of the 5th SF's ME QRF company. The guys has done four deployments in the ME since 9-11 going back to pre-Kabul, and I have 100% faith in his honesty.

NOTE: if you pass this info on, please remove K.E.'s initials and unit information. I felt okay burying this info deep in this "specialist" FR thread.

[Future Snake Eater]

Thanks for the info! Very interesting stuff...did he tell you what kind of magazine load they were able to carry in 6.8 mm? Now, granted, I've never shot anyone with an M4/M16 so I'll defer to his experience, but what happened to the whole "tumbling round" that supposedly causes all kinds of internal damage? Is that just an "old wives' tale" so to speak?

[archy]

They want the 6.8s even with greatly reduced mag capacity, a sign of their strong desire to dump the 5.56mm. The ordnance guy from Crane (K.E and him were never at the booth at the same time) pointed out that the 6.8 may not feed reliably from a 5.56 mag. The double stack mag is designed to work tightly packed with rounds touching tops and bottoms. Spaced out in a mag, half way between double and single stacked, the rounds are pushed hard outward, causing binding. That was a point the ordnance man made, that K.E. didn't mention.

Maybe that's a problem in an M16's magazine, made to fit that straight-wall magazine housing of Stoner's AR15, and so cursed now with 30-round magazines that have to transition from a straight magazine to a curved one, the cause of much of the M16A1 and later versions reliability problems.

But the Kalishnikov and Stoner 63-derived magazine of the Galil doesn't suffer that disadvantage, and a Galil is no doubt sturdy enough to handle a 6.8 caliber upgrade....perhaps the way to go is not with a new M4 upper at all....

[archy]

but what happened to the whole "tumbling round" that supposedly causes all kinds of internal damage? Is that just an "old wives' tale" so to speak?

Not at all, though they didn't exactly *tumble*. When the bullet nose [ogive] hit a dense material such as flesh or bone, the still-spinning bullet's heavier rear portion continued its turning, often in ever-widening diameters, leaving a wound whose path resembled a funnel. That was a characteristic of the very early 1:14 twist barrels, changed to a 1:12 twist in the M16A1, particularly when the 55-grain M193 ball ammunition was used, which also had a nasty habit of breaking in half at its cannulure [bullet jacket's grooving]once it got sideways while meeting resistance. The diverging wound channels could get real nasty, and could help promote blood loss and shock, giving the old M16 and M16A2 a better reputation for stopping power, if not for mechanical reliability or long-distance accuracy, long ranges not usually being a problem in Vietnam where the usual enemy equipment were AK and SKS rifles or leftover US WWII carbines. But every now and again, someone on the other side would turn up who could really shoot.

Too, some hits were from tracers that had burned out at maximum distance, or had been fired from short-barrelled XM177E2 *Car 15s* that sometimes had the same stopping problems that 14.5-inch barrelled M4s now exhibit. If you're gonna use the 5,56mm, use it in as long a barrel as possible, and take advantage of that accuracy...if it's not a windy day.

-archy-/-

[Cloud William]

Fans of the FAL (which has its pros, but is unmaintainable except by a first-world military with good training and logistics) can see the US T48 version in the Springfield Armory Museum, which is accessible if you find in Boston, Albany, or Hartford and have time for a day trip.

Yep, someone posted pics on the FAL Files message board some time ago, which pics showed rack upon rack of T-48s sitting in storage. The pictures might've been taken at the museum, if the display shows a whole bunch of T-48s standing in open storage racks.

I know some of the vices of the FAL design, but to what do you attribute its "unmaintainable" nature? I know it lacks the "modular" design that later service rifles feature, but it *is* Hell for stout.

[PoorMuttly]

...perhaps we should have a "NATO" Army...and an "ARMY" Army.

Are you listening, revered "Rummy" ?????????

Kill the 9mm Beretta too.

[Travis McGee]

Hey, I always did like the old M-16A1 "Mattie Mattel". 6.5 pounds, 20 inch barrel, 400+ yard accuracy. Is the heavier A2 any huge improvement? Not to me.

[Travis McGee]

I didn't think to ask how many 6.8s fit into a 30 rnd 556 mag. I'm guessing 20-22? Maybe as many as 24? Purely guessing.

My take on the "tumbling" was that the old 55 grain ammo out of a 1-14 twist barrel (if that's what the M-16A1 was) was not too stable at best. As soon as it hit somebody it tended to fishtail and flip. The new NATO standard 62 grain ammo, fired from a faster twist 1-9 barrel, is extremely stable in flight. It was designed for NATO armies to be capable of hitting and penetrating a Russian steel helmet at about 600 yards. That's great, but when it hits Abdul at 20 feet, it often makes a clean "knitting needle" or "icepick" wound. These wounds, while ultimately fatal, don't reliably put a man out of the fight immediately. Much of their energy is wasted, as the bullet zips on through and keeps going.

The Russians have better bullet designs, which are made to flip 180* every time passing through a torso. These wounds do far more damage than a "knitting needle," ripping and shredding a wide swath of meat and organs, and going from 3,000 to almost nil fps, dumping all their energy into the shootee.

[archy]

Hey, I always did like the old M-16A1 "Mattie Mattel". 6.5 pounds, 20 inch barrel, 400+ yard accuracy. Is the heavier A2 any huge improvement? Not to me.

400 yards if it's not windy. That little 55-grain pill got blown off course with hardly a puff of breeze. But you could carry it, a fair supply of magazines [20-rounders, in my time] and water, chow, Claymores, M60 ammo and a PRC 25 and spare batteries with a reasonably minimal amount of strain.

The M16A2 is an improvement when on semi if you only have one or two magazines worth of ammo, a bad idea that seems to be too uncomfortably commonplace nowadays. IMHO the Canadians have a better idea with their Diemaco C7.

[PoorMuttly]

...flesh is one thing..and it seems the hollow cavity Russian design certainly is effective at that...but does it sacrifice deep, linear penetration through greater resistance ? I suspect it does. Apples or oranges, but not both...with this tiny caliber.

Also...wind drift makes the 5.56mm shall we say "problematical" at longer ranges...so even hitting that helmet would be unlikely...which is where spray and pray magazine capacity is supposed to come in..??? Like the 9mm...you may NEED those "extra" rounds...when he keeps coming...

[Travis McGee]

The Russian ammo, in both 5.45 and 7.62X54 sniper grade, has a steel penetrator tip at the front of the lead "driver." On impact the driver moves forward within the bullet, upsetting the center of balancing and causing the slug to flip end for end. But before it flips, the steel penetrator tip slices through the enemy's helmet or vest. That's the theory. The Russians stand by it. The Afghans called the new slugs "poison bullets" when they were introduced in the then-new AK-74s.

---

One funny story. We have an Accuracy Int'l (British) sniper rifle in our booth, showing off our AI version butt monopod. (Accu-Shot) I was talking to a British gent about 60 years old for a half hour about everything under the sun: my book, rifles, etc. At the end he gave me a card. "Technical Director, AI." He was the designer and lead engineer for their rifles for the last 25 years! The inventor of the world's best sniper rifle! And here I was shooting the breeze with him. I mentioned that my book was similar to the Brit novelist Gerald Seymour's superb military/espionage thrillers. He said he had to take an older AI rifle (LR-96?) down to London for photos for the cover of one of Seymour's books, "At Close Quarters." That's the one where the good guy does a sniper mission against a terrorist in the Bekaa Valley. I'm looking at my copy now, and there on the cover is that exotic looking AI rifle, wth the green stock. And there I was at the SHOT Show, talking about books and guns with the AI's inventor. How about THAT!