PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION BAN - THE BETRAYAL IS NOW COMPLETE [BARF ALERT - ANTI-GOP PROPAGANDA]

NewsWithViews.com ^ | May 9, 2003 | By David Brownlow

[Uncle Bill]

PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION BAN - THE BETRAYAL IS NOW COMPLETE

NewsWithViews.com
By David Brownlow
May 9, 2003
Source

A politician would have a hard time finding a more loyal special interest group than with those of us who oppose the legalized child killing industry. For the last thirty years of the war on the unborn, we have worked tirelessly to elect pro-life, mostly Republican, politicians.

Our loyalty was so strong that even though the Republicans failed to deliver us a single pro-life victory, we continued to send them back to Washington year after year. For thirty years, we trusted the Republicans when they told us to be patient, because they had a plan and a party platform that said abortion was wrong.

We now know that everything they told us was a complete pack of lies.

We know that because the Senate has finally passed the long awaited "Partial Birth Abortion Ban," Senate Bill S.3. Rather than being a useful tool in the fight to stop a barbaric and indefensible method of child killing, S.3 reads more like an instruction manual for abortionists.

In what can only be described as the mildest abortion restrictions that one could possibly put into words, Sec.1531 instructs the "doctor" to make sure and kill the child before "in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother". Or "in the case of breech presentation", make sure the child is killed before "any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother". (Actual text of SB S.3 in quotes)

With toothless restrictions like that, it is highly unlikely that even a single life will be saved. The only thing this will do is to make sure all the children are killed before the "entire fetal head" or the "fetal trunk past the navel" is showing. We waited thirty years for this?

Excuse me for shouting, but IF THE HEAD IS ALMOST OUT OF THE MOTHER, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO KILL THE KID? Do we hate children so much that we cannot wait 10 more seconds for the child to be born? 42,000,000 children killed since 1973 and this is the best they could come up with. What kind of people have we been putting into office?

If Senate Bill S.3 was just plain bad legislation, we could almost forgive the politicians for their incompetence. But believe it or not, this bill gets even worse. It gets a lot worse.

Not content to just write a watered down, sorry excuse for an abortion ban, the Senate goes on in Sec. 4, to let us all know "The Sense on the Senate Concerning Roe. v. Wade". I am not sure what kind of sense these people have, but we have definitely found out what we get for thirty years of loyalty. The 48 Republican Senators who voted to approve S.3, pledged that,

"the decision of the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade [410 U.S. 113 (1973)] was appropriate and secures an important constitutional right; and such decision should not be overturned".

You need to read that again. I've read it about 20 times and it still hurts to look at it.

Please understand that it was not just a few renegade Senators who voted for this. It was 48 Republican Senators, including every one of them who ever told us they were pro-life, who put their name on a bill that says; Roe v. Wade was "appropriate." This is a clear, unambiguous reaffirmation of the illegal Supreme Court decision that started this whole mess back in 1973. If I had not read it for myself I would not believe it.

The extent of their betrayal is absolutely breath taking!

So now we know why the Republicans have gone thirty years without a single pro- life victory. These guys are not even pro-life! We have been fooling ourselves that somehow, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the years of partisan efforts were getting us closer to ending legalized abortion in America. But if the "sense" of the Senate is any indication, we have not even started the fight. We can now only hope that the House has enough sense to put S.3 out of it's misery.

A decades old policy of voting for the lesser of two evils has left us with a Republican Party that is a mere hollowed-out shell of its former self, broken beyond any hope of repair. The only way we are ever going to win this fight is by putting men and women of integrity into office who will not bow to the political pressures.

Clearly, the team we have in there now is not up to the task.

---

Partial- birth abortion ban hits snag over Roe v. Wade affirmation
"President Bush supports the ban, but there has been no indication if he would sign it into law if it included the Roe resolution."

---

S 3 ES

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 3

---

AN ACT

To prohibit the procedure commonly known as partial-birth abortion.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003'.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

The Congress finds and declares the following:

(1) A moral, medical, and ethical consensus exists that the practice of performing a partial-birth abortion--an abortion in which a physician delivers an unborn child's body until only the head remains inside the womb, punctures the back of the child's skull with a Sharp instrument, and sucks the child's brains out before completing delivery of the dead infant--is a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary and should be prohibited.

(2) Rather than being an abortion procedure that is embraced by the medical community, particularly among physicians who routinely perform other abortion procedures, partial-birth abortion remains a disfavored procedure that is not only unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother, but in fact poses serious risks to the long-term health of women and in some circumstances, their lives. As a result, at least 27 States banned the procedure as did the United States Congress which voted to ban the procedure during the 104th, 105th, and 106th Congresses.

(3) In Stenberg v. Carhart (530 U.S. 914, 932 (2000)), the United States Supreme Court opined `that significant medical authority supports the proposition that in some circumstances, [partial birth abortion] would be the safest procedure' for pregnant women who wish to undergo an abortion. Thus, the Court struck down the State of Nebraska's ban on partial-birth abortion procedures, concluding that it placed an `undue burden' on women seeking abortions because it failed to include an exception for partial-birth abortions deemed necessary to preserve the `health' of the mother.

(4) In reaching this conclusion, the Court deferred to the Federal district court's factual findings that the partial-birth abortion procedure was statistically and medically as safe as, and in many circumstances safer than, alternative abortion procedures.

(5) However, the great weight of evidence presented at the Stenberg trial and other trials challenging partial-birth abortion bans, as well as at extensive Congressional hearings, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed, and is outside of the standard of medical care.

(6) Despite the dearth of evidence in the Stenberg trial court record supporting the district court's findings, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit and the Supreme Court refused to set aside the district court's factual findings because, under the applicable standard of appellate review, they were not `clearly erroneous'. A finding of fact is clearly erroneous `when although there is evidence to support it, the reviewing court on the entire evidence is left with the definite and firm conviction that a mistake has been committed'. Anderson v. City of Bessemer City, North Carolina (470 U.S. 564, 573 (1985)). Under this standard, `if the district court's account of the evidence is plausible in light of the record viewed in its entirety, the court of appeals may not reverse it even though convinced that had it been sitting as the trier of fact, it would have weighed the evidence differently' (Id. at 574).

(7) Thus, in Stenberg, the United States Supreme Court was required to accept the very questionable findings issued by the district court judge--the effect of which was to render null and void the reasoned factual findings and policy determinations of the United States Congress and at least 27 State legislatures.

(8) However, under well-settled Supreme Court jurisprudence, the United States Congress is not bound to accept the same factual findings that the Supreme Court was bound to accept in Stenberg under the `clearly erroneous' standard. Rather, the United States Congress is entitled to reach its own factual findings--findings that the Supreme Court accords great deference--and to enact legislation based upon these findings so long as it seeks to pursue a legitimate interest that is within the scope of the Constitution, and draws reasonable inferences based upon substantial evidence.

(9) In Katzenbach v. Morgan (384 U.S. 641 (1966)), the Supreme Court articulated its highly deferential review of Congressional factual findings when it addressed the constitutionality of section 4(e) of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Regarding Congress' factual determination that section 4 (e) would assist the Puerto Rican community in `gaining nondiscriminatory treatment in public services,' the Court stated that `[i]t was for Congress, as the branch that made this judgment, to assess and weigh the various conflicting considerations. . . . It is not for us to review the congressional resolution of these factors. It is enough that we be able to perceive a basis upon which the Congress might resolve the conflict as it did. There plainly was such a basis to support section 4(e) in the application in question in this case.' (Id. at 653).

(10) Katzenbach's highly deferential review of Congress's factual conclusions was relied upon by the United States District Court for the District of Columbia when it upheld the `bail-out' provisions of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, (42 U.S.C. 1973c), stating that `congressional fact finding, to which we are inclined to pay great deference, strengthens the inference that, in those jurisdictions covered by the Act, state actions discriminatory in effect are discriminatory in purpose'. City of Rome, Georgia v. U.S. (472 F. Supp. 221 (D. D. Col. 1979)) aff'd City of Rome, Georgia v. U.S. (46 U.S. 156 (1980)).

(11) The Court continued its practice of deferring to congressional factual findings in reviewing the constitutionality of the must- carry provisions of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and Competition Act of 1992. See Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission (512 U.S. 622 (1994) (Turner I)) and Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission (520 U.S. 180 (1997) (Turner II)). At issue in the Turner cases was Congress' legislative finding that, absent mandatory carriage rules, the continued viability of local broadcast television would be `seriously jeopardized'. The Turner I Court recognized that as an institution, `Congress is far better equipped than the judiciary to `amass and evaluate the vast amounts of data' bearing upon an issue as complex and dynamic as that presented here' (512 U.S. at 665-66). Although the Court recognized that `the deference afforded to legislative findings does `not foreclose our independent judgment of the facts bearing on an issue of constitutional law,' its `obligation to exercise independent judgment when First Amendment rights are implicated is not a license to reweigh the evidence de novo, or to replace Congress' factual predictions with our own. Rather, it is to assure that, in formulating its judgments, Congress has drawn reasonable inferences based on substantial evidence.' (Id. at 666).

(12) Three years later in Turner II, the Court upheld the `must- carry' provisions based upon Congress' findings, stating the Court's `sole obligation is `to assure that, in formulating its judgments, Congress has drawn reasonable inferences based on substantial evidence.' (520 U.S. at 195). Citing its ruling in Turner I, the Court reiterated that `[w]e owe Congress' findings deference in part because the institution `is far better equipped than the judiciary to `amass and evaluate the vast amounts of data' bearing upon' legislative questions,' (Id. at 195), and added that it `owe[d] Congress' findings an additional measure of deference out of respect for its authority to exercise the legislative power.' (Id. at 196).

(13) There exists substantial record evidence upon which Congress has reached its conclusion that a ban on partial-birth abortion is not required to contain a `health' exception, because the facts indicate that a partial- birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses serious risks to a woman's health, and lies outside the standard of medical care. Congress was informed by extensive hearings held during the 104th, 105th, and 107th Congresses and passed a ban on partial-birth abortion in the 104th, 105th, and 106th Congresses. These findings reflect the very informed judgment of the Congress that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses serious risks to a woman's health, and lies outside the standard of medical care, and should, therefore, be banned.

(14) Pursuant to the testimony received during extensive legislative hearings during the 104th, 105th, and 107th Congresses, Congress finds and declares that:

(A) Partial-birth abortion poses serious risks to the health of a woman undergoing the procedure. Those risks include, among other things: an increase in a woman's risk of suffering from cervical incompetence, a result of cervical dilation making it difficult or impossible for a woman to successfully carry a subsequent pregnancy to term; an increased risk of uterine rupture, abruption, amniotic fluid embolus, and trauma to the uterus as a result of converting the child to a footling breech position, a procedure which, according to a leading obstetrics textbook, `there are very few, if any, indications for . . . other than for delivery of a second twin'; and a risk of lacerations and secondary hemorrhaging due to the doctor blindly forcing a sharp instrument into the base of the unborn child's skull while he or she is lodged in the birth canal, an act which could result in severe bleeding, brings with it the threat of shock, and could ultimately result in maternal death.

(B) There is no credible medical evidence that partial-birth abortions are safe or are safer than other abortion procedures. No controlled studies of partial-birth abortions have been conducted nor have any comparative studies been conducted to demonstrate its safety and efficacy compared to other abortion methods. Furthermore, there have been no articles published in peer- reviewed journals that establish that partial-birth abortions are superior in any way to established abortion procedures. Indeed, unlike other more commonly used abortion procedures, there are currently no medical schools that provide instruction on abortions that include the instruction in partial-birth abortions in their curriculum.

(C) A prominent medical association has concluded that partial- birth abortion is `not an accepted medical practice,' that it has `never been subject to even a minimal amount of the normal medical practice development,' that `the relative advantages and disadvantages of the procedure in specific circumstances remain unknown,' and that `there is no consensus among obstetricians about its use'. The association has further noted that partial- birth abortion is broadly disfavored by both medical experts and the public, is `ethically wrong,' and `is never the only appropriate procedure'.

(D) Neither the plaintiff in Stenberg v. Carhart, nor the experts who testified on his behalf, have identified a single circumstance during which a partial-birth abortion was necessary to preserve the health of a woman.

(E) The physician credited with developing the partial-birth abortion procedure has testified that he has never encountered a situation where a partial-birth abortion was medically necessary to achieve the desired outcome and, thus, is never medically necessary to preserve the health of a woman.

(F) A ban on the partial-birth abortion procedure will therefore advance the health interests of pregnant women seeking to terminate a pregnancy.

(G) In light of this overwhelming evidence, Congress and the States have a compelling interest in prohibiting partial-birth abortions. In addition to promoting maternal health, such a prohibition will draw a bright line that clearly distinguishes abortion and infanticide, that preserves the integrity of the medical profession, and promotes respect for human life.

(H) Based upon Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113 (1973)) and Planned Parenthood v. Casey (505 U.S. 833 (1992)), a governmental interest in protecting the life of a child during the delivery process arises by virtue of the fact that during a partial-birth abortion, labor is induced and the birth process has begun. This distinction was recognized in Roe when the Court noted, without comment, that the Texas parturition statute, which prohibited one from killing a child `in a state of being born and before actual birth,' was not under attack. This interest becomes compelling as the child emerges from the maternal body. A child that is completely born is a full, legal person entitled to constitutional protections afforded a `person' under the United States Constitution. Partial-birth abortions involve the killing of a child that is in the process, in fact mere inches away from, becoming a `person'. Thus, the government has a heightened interest in protecting the life of the partially- born child.

(I) This, too, has not gone unnoticed in the medical community, where a prominent medical association has recognized that partial- birth abortions are `ethically different from other destructive abortion techniques because the fetus, normally twenty weeks or longer in gestation, is killed outside of the womb'. According to this medical association, the `partial birth' gives the fetus an autonomy which separates it from the right of the woman to choose treatments for her own body'.

(J) Partial-birth abortion also confuses the medical, legal, and ethical duties of physicians to preserve and promote life, as the physician acts directly against the physical life of a child, whom he or she had just delivered, all but the head, out of the womb, in order to end that life. Partial-birth abortion thus appropriates the terminology and techniques used by obstetricians in the delivery of living children--obstetricians who preserve and protect the life of the mother and the child--and instead uses those techniques to end the life of the partially-born child.

(K) Thus, by aborting a child in the manner that purposefully seeks to kill the child after he or she has begun the process of birth, partial- birth abortion undermines the public's perception of the appropriate role of a physician during the delivery process, and perverts a process during which life is brought into the world, in order to destroy a partially-born child.

(L) The gruesome and inhumane nature of the partial-birth abortion procedure and its disturbing similarity to the killing of a newborn infant promotes a complete disregard for infant human life that can only be countered by a prohibition of the procedure.

(M) The vast majority of babies killed during partial-birth abortions are alive until the end of the procedure. It is a medical fact, however, that unborn infants at this stage can feel pain when subjected to painful stimuli and that their perception of this pain is even more intense than that of newborn infants and older children when subjected to the same stimuli. Thus, during a partial-birth abortion procedure, the child will fully experience the pain associated with piercing his or her skull and sucking out his or her brain.

(N) Implicitly approving such a brutal and inhumane procedure by choosing not to prohibit it will further coarsen society to the humanity of not only newborns, but all vulnerable and innocent human life, making it increasingly difficult to protect such life. Thus, Congress has a compelling interest in acting--indeed it must act--to prohibit this inhumane procedure.

(O) For these reasons, Congress finds that partial-birth abortion is never medically indicated to preserve the health of the mother; is in fact unrecognized as a valid abortion procedure by the mainstream medical community; poses additional health risks to the mother; blurs the line between abortion and infanticide in the killing of a partially-born child just inches from birth; and confuses the role of the physician in childbirth and should, therefore, be banned.

SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS.

(a) IN GENERAL- Title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after chapter 73 the following:

`CHAPTER 74--PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS

`Sec.

`1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited.

`Sec. 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited

`(a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. This subsection takes effect 1 day after the date of enactment of this chapter.

`(b) As used in this section--

`(1) the term `partial-birth abortion' means an abortion in which--

`(A) the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head- first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and

`(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus; and

`(2) the term `physician' means a doctor of medicine or osteopathy legally authorized to practice medicine and surgery by the State in which the doctor performs such activity, or any other individual legally authorized by the State to perform abortions: Provided, however, That any individual who is not a physician or not otherwise legally authorized by the State to perform abortions, but who nevertheless directly performs a partial-birth abortion, shall be subject to the provisions of this section.

`(c)(1) The father, if married to the mother at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion procedure, and if the mother has not attained the age of 18 years at the time of the abortion, the maternal grandparents of the fetus, may in a civil action obtain appropriate relief, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff's criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion.

`(2) Such relief shall include--

`(A) money damages for all injuries, psychological and physical, occasioned by the violation of this section; and

`(B) statutory damages equal to three times the cost of the partial-birth abortion.

`(d)(1) A defendant accused of an offense under this section may seek a hearing before the State Medical Board on whether the physician's conduct was necessary to save the life of the mother whose life was endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life- endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.

`(2) The findings on that issue are admissible on that issue at the trial of the defendant. Upon a motion of the defendant, the court shall delay the beginning of the trial for not more than 30 days to permit such a hearing to take place.

`(e) A woman upon whom a partial-birth abortion is performed may not be prosecuted under this section, for a conspiracy to violate this section, or for an offense under section 2, 3, or 4 of this title based on a violation of this section.'.

(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT- The table of chapters for part I of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the item relating to chapter 73 the following new item:

--1531'.

SEC. 4. SENSE OF THE SENATE CONCERNING ROE V. WADE.

(a) FINDINGS- The Senate finds that--

(1) abortion has been a legal and constitutionally protected medical procedure throughout the United States since the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113 (1973)); and

(2) the 1973 Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade established constitutionally based limits on the power of States to restrict the right of a woman to choose to terminate a pregnancy.

(b) SENSE OF THE SENATE- It is the sense of the Senate that--

(1) the decision of the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113 (1973)) was appropriate and secures an important constitutional right; and

(2) such decision should not be overturned.

Passed the Senate March 13, 2003.

Attest:

Secretary.

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 3

AN ACT

To prohibit the procedure commonly known as partial-birth abortion.

END

---

Bush Signs Largest Family Planning Bill In U.S. History

Covenant News
Staff
January 11, 2002

On Thursday, January 10, 2002, the White House reported President Bush signed the ominous $15.4 billion foreign appropriations bill, H.R. 2506, for fiscal-year 2002. The bill authorizes $446.5 million U.S. tax dollars to be given to other countries for abortion- family planning activities throughout the world. The abortion-family planning funds approved by Bush represents an increase of $21.5 million over last year for international family planning.
[end of excerpt]
SOURCE

U.S. Quietly OKs Fetal Stem Cell Work - Bush allows funding despite federal limits on embryo use

White House killed human-cloning ban
Although President Bush has endorsed a complete ban on human cloning sponsored by senators Sam Brownback, R.-Kan., and Mary Landrieu, D.- La., White House lobbyists contacted Republican senators June 18 to ask them to vote that morning for cloture (a closing of debate to bring a legislative question to a vote) on the Senate's terrorism insurance bill (S 2600), thus preventing an up-or-down vote on a human cloning amendment that Brownback wanted to attach to the bill. His amendment would have banned the patenting of human embryos – effectively destroying any economic incentive for the experimental cloning of human beings."

[William Wallace]

The tide of opinion on the murder of innocents (aka abortion) has turned in America since the 1970's. This is due to experience under anytime/anywhere/for any reason abortion, to advances in science and technology which allow us to peek into the living womb and at DNA's ribbon, to advances in medicine which enable us to operate on tiny infants still in utero, and to education.

Inspirational post. Flagging a select few I know would not want to miss this magnificent gem at the end of the thread.

Please read #705!!!

Update on Samuel Armas, miracle baby

[Sabertooth]

After the passage of this bill, there will be no form of legal partial birth abortion.

As is currently and generally practiced, that's true (aside from "life of the mother" exceptions, which I don't buy anyway.)

Find me some other form of PBA that is currently in practice. If it's likely that abortionists will start performing PBAs some other way to get around this legislation, as you attest, you ought to be able to find something concrete to defend your position.

Otherwise you are creating theories out of thin air. I didn't take you for that type.

It's not of thin air that we understand that when things are outlawed, folks who are affected will try and find ways around the new law. My questions on this thread have been attempts to discern how determined abortionists might go about circumventing this PBA legislation.

If we accept that this legislation is an incremental step, then there are legitimate questions that need to be asked in order to determine where it might fall short, and thus, where the next incremental step might be taken.

[Sabertooth]

This sounds reasonable, but says very little. One can bash Republicans on the 99.857% of FR threads other than the ones you carved out and still meet this standard.

Yeah, that's the beauty of staying on topic.

But by all means, go ahead and weed through my thousands of posts, and let's see how close to 99% bashing you really get. I'm just guessing, but I'd say it's closer to 60% bashing, maybe 70%.

You see, those are the threads that interest me. Pom Poms are for others, and I generally bypass the cheerleading threads.

[Sabertooth]

What would the Democrats do?? Look at what they've done for that answer.

But then they are relentless. I've never seen a malcontent at DU. They take every crumb and rejoice.

Missed this earlier, but I appreciate the setting forth of a standard by which you feel that FR falls short of DU:

"I've never seen a malcontent at DU."

So goes the lament that the circle of groupthink is incomplete at Free Republic.

[wgeorge2001]

"...background work of your own. Who voted for and against the bill? Who voted for and against the Harkin amendment? No, you'd rather just keep repeating the lie. Your agenda is obvious."


Do you know my agenda, Mr. Robinson? Let me inform you of my agenda. I am a typical right wing conservative Christian who loves the Lord and believes all the Holy Bible; God inspired Word and doctrine for mankind to the last sentence.
I despise all abortion as murder and consider partial birth abortion infanticide(murdering children is despicable) and I am sick to death of all the politicians who supposedly represent conservatives and continue to play "gentleman's club" while the left wing neo-nazi communist politicians plays hardball for the radical gays,feminists,hateful teachers unions,radical social workers who destroy peoples lives under the guise of "love for the children", homosexual activists and foolish people who vote in democrats; etc.
My agenda is to support conservative Christians who run for political office and I expect them to deal harshly with all the treasonous democrats who raise their right hand to God,swear that they will uphold and protect our Constituional Republic, lying and hiding their intentions to destroy America's Constitution.
I pray the Lord Jesus Christ will judge those radicals who call good evil and evil good; most especially those in government who undermine our Constitution; which was and is the best freeman's protections against power mad radicals and fools,i.e., the democrat party.

[diotima]

Thanks for the Ping. That picture is amazing.....better than any argument could ever be.

[SpookBrat]

Partial birth abortion is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT necessary to save a mothers life. These babies can be born ALIVE!!!!!!!

Amen sister tiggywinkle. I've been reading this thread without glasses for 2 hours now. Time to rest my eyes. Bumping your post. Love to you and little tiggywinkle.

[DeSoto]

Thanks for the ping WW, I have been following this thread for the last 24 hours and there have been some very good points made, by a lot of people. If you haven't seen this one please read it. It says nearly everything that I would like to have said.

There are a lot of viewpoints that have been expressed here, but it can be summarized best by saying that there is no reason why, when ending a pregnancy early for the health of the mother, that the baby/fetus shouldn't be given every opportunity to live. Killing the baby for the sake of convenience is horrendous.

Further, while the PBA legislation is not as strong as many would like it to be, it was designed to pass the Supreme Court criteria for their interpretation of Constitutionality. Anything stronger would likely die in the Supreme Court and thereby serve no useful purpose. Should there be stronger legislation? Absolutely, but let's take what we can get and then ask for more. The job isn't over with this bill.

It is also important to reiterate the importance of changing the hearts and minds of the general population. I read the posts of Common Tator as often as possible, and have learned many things. He has said that if 70% of the population is for something, that both parties will rush to get in front of the parade and try to lead it. Such is the political reality of getting something accomplished. Educating the public to the stages of development in the womb is the best means of stopping abortion. When the public is convinced, then the laws will follow, not the other way around.

I have also read a most illuminating post by Southack from a couple of weeks ago. With the very slim majority in both the House and Senate, it has been necessary for President Bush, in order to garner enough votes on legislation, to molly-coddle the RINOs and DINOs in order to create a majority of votes to pass his legislation. The only way that he has been able to do that is by agreeing to sign questionable bills and spending our tax money on pork to mollify the most liberal of the votes needed. How conservative a bill is is directly proportional to the weakest vote needed to pass it, and how much pork had to be paid to get that vote.

This situation clearly speaks to the aspirations of Jim Robinson's determined efforts to add to the majority of both houses, by voting the 'rats out. Only when it is possible to easily have enough votes to pass the President's agenda is it going to be possible to tell the RINOs that no extraordinary deals will be cut to get their votes. The greater the majority on Republicans in the House and Senate, the more conservative the legislative result.

Hey, WW, thanks again for the ping, it is good to see you around again.

[Sabertooth]

There are a lot of viewpoints that have been expressed here, but it can be summarized best by saying that there is no reason why, when ending a pregnancy early for the health of the mother, that the baby/fetus shouldn't be given every opportunity to live. Killing the baby for the sake of convenience is horrendous.

Further, while the PBA legislation is not as strong as many would like it to be, it was designed to pass the Supreme Court criteria for their interpretation of Constitutionality. Anything stronger would likely die in the Supreme Court and thereby serve no useful purpose. Should there be stronger legislation? Absolutely, but let's take what we can get and then ask for more. The job isn't over with this bill.

It is also important to reiterate the importance of changing the hearts and minds of the general population.

Great summary, thanks for posting.

There will come times, and it appears this is one of them, that incrementalism is the preferred approach, or the best we've got for the time being. Incrementalism works best when we keep our eyes on the next step.

However, there will come other times when the best approach will be to take the fight for the unborn into the teeth of their enemies. Those fights will be best fought when our arguments are steeled from within.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Hey, great post.

I was just slumming over at LostPriviledges.com, and that dumbass Mercuria still has tunnel vision.

Like the rest of the losers, she look only where Uncle Bill wants her to look, and ignores that the portion of the bill she keeps pouring over and over, is qualified by the previous passage, the one that she conveniently never posts.

I knew she was obnoxious, but I never realized just what a dumbass she was.

But hey!

Her and Todd deserve one another but good!

[Jim Robinson]

Yeah, well, deliberately lying about who voted for what won't get you to heaven.

[Mo1]

Educating the public to the stages of development in the womb is the best means of stopping abortion. When the public is convinced, then the laws will follow, not the other way around.

I agree .. educating the public is very important. It amazes me the number of folks that I have talk to about PBA had no idea what it was all about. Once I explained to them, their opinions did a complete turn around

[DeSoto]

Incrementalism works best when we keep our eyes on the next step.

I agree with your conclusion. PBA is a good first step, let's get this one in the bag by supporting it and move on to the next. Wars aren't usually won with one battle, let's take the victory and prepare for the next.

[Victoria Delsoul]

Thank you for the links. I've always believed that abortion is an act of pure selfishness and lack of love, especially for the most defenseless… the ones who can't cry out and ask for help.

[DeSoto]

Thanks Mo1. It is amazing what I have learned in the last 4 or 5 years on FR. I used to be one of those "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" kind of people. From reading FR, I have learned that to accomplish anything, you must learn to be flexible and move cautiously in the right direction with a goal firmly in mind.

Not every move on a chessboard is checkmate, it is all the little moves beforehand that makes checkmate possible.

[Mo1]

Not every move on a chessboard is checkmate, it is all the little moves beforehand that makes checkmate possible.

That's correct and thank you for your posts

[nunya bidness]

I knew she was obnoxious, but I never realized just what a dumbass she was.

Your attempt to engage Merc in debate by flaming her is notable. You're smart and well read, therefore there's no reason for gutter tactics. Yet you do anyway. Which makes me think that you're more of a schoolyard bully and less of a thinker. Am I wrong?

And no, I'm not a Bengals fan. Just someone that can read a loophole that is a mile wide and clearly pandering to a gossamer electorate that, as of yet, hasn't proven to be the base of the party that is seeking reelection.

You may not like it (in the Horowitz school of Trotskyite "winning is everything" seminar politics V 2.0) but principles mean something. With a slim margin of a lead in Congress the left has proven that they can push their legislation through despite a Republican President. While on the other hand, a slim majority of Republicans have proven to push leftist legislation despite themselves.

I ask you: where's the beef? If not now, when? Think about it.

Parsing obviously tampered legislation is not leadership. Leadership is bold steps with the concern of the unborn foremost in concern.

I haven't seen it yet and I'm not confident that it will appear. And having talked to many conservatives in the flesh they are considering a candidate that will address this issue based on leadership.

Ignore them at the peril of the ever shifting mushy middle.

[nunya bidness]

Ignore them at the peril of the ever shifting mushy middle

Should read:

Ignore them at the cost of gaining the ever shifting mushy middle.

I'm going to bed.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

I haven't seen it yet and I'm not confident that it will appear.

Didn't you click on the link I posted to you? How can you not, in good conscience, acknowledge the things President Bush has done? That's what I don't understand. What president has done more than he has, and why do some people think the glass is always not just half-empty, but bone dry?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Your attempt to engage Merc in debate by flaming her is notable. You're smart and well read, therefore there's no reason for gutter tactics. Yet you do anyway. Which makes me think that you're more of a schoolyard bully and less of a thinker. Am I wrong?"

Did you bother reading what she's been saying about me over at LP?

Of course not.

I am not "engaging" Merc...I am responding to her in kind.