Egypt demands return of Rosetta Stone!

The Sunday Telegraph - UK ^ | July 20, 2003 | Charlotte Edwardes and Catherine Milner

[John Locke]

How can you possibly justify the theft of a article as "cultutal hertitage" when the culture that stole it didn't even exist at the time when the artifact was created?

Turn about: how can you justify "returning" a cultural artifact to the culture that destroyed its creators?

[Cronos]

Ok, so, by your logic, if the Nazis had won WWII, they would have been allowed to keep the art treasures they robbed from Poland, Russia, France etc. etc.?

[Cronos]

And the "current Egyptians" also include Coptic christians who speak Coptic which is derived in part from ancient Egyptian and whose ceremonies, while Christian, reflect ancient Egyptian modes of worship. These are descended from the ancinet Egyptians, have a cultured derived from that and a language derived from the ancients. Don't they then have a claim on the artifacts?

[nopardons]

NO !

As with the Greeks ( who keep demandoing the Elgin Marbles be returned ), if it weren't for the Brits, these artifacts would no longer exist most probably. The Elgin Marbles were sold to the English, by the Turks, during the " great " Caliphate. The Rosetta Stone was first taken by the French ( Nappy's unsuccessful war ) and then taken by the Brits. Tough noogies . With so much continued war and turmoil in the Middle East, it's better off in the British Museum, where EVERYONE can see it !

[Cronos]

Well, while I agree that the sword of Islamdid a lot of damage (as evidenced by my tag line), they didn't carry out mass genocides -- they never had the strength to do so, they just subsumed the culture. Pockets of the original culture still hung on - witness the Copts and the assyrian Christians.

The American Indian heritage claimed is land, not artifacts. The artifacts can be moved to the country of origin, handed over to the descendents. Land is a more difficult proposition to which there is no easy answer, if there is one at all

[Cronos]

In case of the elgin marbles, where's the war and turmoil in Greece? No one's denying the Brits did something to maintain them, but they do hold someone else's cultural artifacts.

[A CA Guy]

Maybe Israel should have Egypt returned as well since most of it was old Israel.

[nopardons]

The owners, at that time, sold them. The Acropolis, back then, was being and had been for a long time, slowly destroyed by pilferring of everything the local GREEK populace could lay their hands on. The Brits SAVED them for posterity !

The stinking Greek Commies ( bet ya didn't know this ! ) tried to get them back decades ago. It was NOT because of " cultural heritage "; it was to thumb their nose at " democarcy " and the Brits.

Greece isn't nearly as " open " a society, as you imagine it to be.

The British Museum owns those marbles fair & square ! They're beautiful, but not in great condition, due to the fact that the Greeks had once used them for target practice and building material.

You aren't making much sense. Facts and history matter; learn some and stop being such an emotional poster.

[nopardons]

American Indians ARE claiming things which aren't theirs and styming anthropological research to boot. Then, there are the tribes demanding ( and often getting ) old Indian artifacts, from museums and burying them/sticking them away, where no one can study them or even appreciate them. It's a dog in the manger attitude and does no one any good at all.

The " sword of Islam " did, indeed, carry on genocide. Again, facts and history matter; learn some...please.

[chasio649]

nice post...most excellent!

[KneelBeforeZod]

I've been to the museum in Cairo. Things are basically stacked wherever they fit.

if they REALLY cared, they'd make more of an effort. They are just trying to flex their muscles

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Turn about: how can you justify "returning" a cultural artifact to the culture that destroyed its creators?

Huh?

Let's do this again. Maybe you'll get this analogy. As you know, there was a war between the US and Britain in 1812. Amongst many actions, the Brits torched the White House. Suppose they really looted Washington and made off with the Declaration of Independence and Constitution as war booty. (Historically, that was their goal-- this scenario has them succeed).

Suppose there was a 1816 commission that decided that the acquisition of these documents was made through theft.

Suppose Britain has refused to return them - even today.

To be consistent with your position on the Elgin marbles (bear in mind that the Brits themselves in 1816 found that the marbles were acquired through theft), you would have to say: "that's ok, let the Brits have those documents. Who cares for them. They are after all, the superior culture amd they are preserving our heritage for positerity as only they know how."

[MrsEmmaPeel]

The Brits SAVED them for posterity !

Oh, please spare me. You haven't bought ino that myth have you? Read my previous posts, or any good book on the subject, or the original 1816 report by the British Government themselves that denounced the acquisition as one of theft ... and AFTER thatm THEN explain to me how they were perserved ..

[MrsEmmaPeel]

American Indians ARE claiming things which aren't theirs and styming anthropological research to boot.

Then you'd really be pissed off at the 2001 Supreme Court decision that ruled that the Shipwrecked Spanish Galleon Juno (Shipwrecked off the coast of Virginia in 1802) and all its contents actually belongs to Spain. Spain also won custody of another shipwrecked vessel of theirs, La Galga. Other disputes are still in the courts, but the 2001 decision paves the way for the return of lost property to the rightful country.

[R. Scott]

I forgot the (/cynicism).
I would like to see a system of duel ownership for many of the more famous artifacts. Allow the Western museums to retain partial ownership as recognition of their part in rescuing them from obscurity, but allow the Athenians to see the Elgin marbles without having to travel to London. They same with the Egyptian antiquities, South and Central American, Asian and African pieces.
The days of the “Indiana Jones” types should be gone.

[Cronos]

Huh?? Where did you get that from? The Sinai desert may have been part of Israel under King David and Solomon but not the nile region!

[Cronos]

Facts and history matter, so I ask you to learn 'em.
Fact: Copts are not Arabs.
Fact: Copts are descendents of Christian fellaheen, descendents of the ancient Egyptians.
Fact: Their culture is derived from the ancients.
Hence, the Arab 'genocide' was more like the natives getting absorbed and absorbing the conqueror's culture, like the Gauls under the Franks.

[Right Wing Professor]

Or was there a Hopper or two? (Now Hopper I like.)

Indeed, we have a couple of Hoppers. We can keep those.

You have a very good memory for someone who's a little familiar with our campus.

[Cronos]

Now that's the most sensible post. That should please both sides.

[xp38]

And I have been to the National Museum in Athens. It is nicely laid out. The star attractions of both museums are golden artifacts from tombs. King Tut for the Cairo museum and the Royal tombs at Mycenae (the golden death mask of "Agamenon") in the Athens museum. Essentially these artifacts have been stolen from graves. There is no more respecting of cultural heritage in these museums in the national capitals than anywhere else. I'm sure the locals around the Valley of Kings in Egypt and the archeological site of Mycenae would love to have "their" gold returned to the place where they supposedly rightfully belong.