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To: AnalogReigns
Some other quotes by Martin Luther, mostly from "Luther's Table Talk":

"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

"As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil."

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

"Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years? ... Let the Jews bite on this nut and dispute this question as long as they wish ... I am not a Jew, but I really do not like to contemplate God's awful wrath toward this people. It sends a shudder of fear through body and soul, for I ask, What will the eternal wrath of God in hell be like ..." (from "on the Jews and their lies").

"be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils" (from: "on the Jews and their lies").

"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"Women...have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

5 posted on 07/09/2003 9:25:42 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
Now we would not want to change the subject and bring up some tasty quotes from the popes. I had to chuckle, as I watched the PBS Luther show tonight, at the painting of the pope and his "nephews."
6 posted on 07/09/2003 9:32:19 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: TheCrusader
I don't really know your point, except to discredit a man for holding common attitudes to those of medieval central Europeans of nearly 500 years ago.

Luther has no peer in bringing wonderful change to the Western world, including seeding concepts of democracy which first sprouted and bloomed in America.

Bringing up silly remarks say about women, or demonology (from a time when the most educated people thought in ways about heath laughable today)by Luther is as unhelpful as say bringing up racist remarks by Jefferson or Lincoln--which they had quite a few. Such anachronistic attitudes don't tarnish the greatness of their other way more substantial contributions.
7 posted on 07/09/2003 9:48:01 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: TheCrusader
"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

Now hold on. He may have something with this one.

11 posted on 07/10/2003 8:26:05 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: TheCrusader
I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

OK, OK, Luther was wrong. The pope wasn't the antichrist. The papacy was.

Well, the papacy wasn't the Antichrist...but 1 John talks about antichrists plural.

22 posted on 07/10/2003 10:16:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

OK, from a design perspective, yes, "broad hips" does indeed correlate with bearing and bringing up children. Or do you think this is better suited for the test tube and daycare industries?

Boy, that nasty Luther. The nerve of him to label woman as a housekeeper. Why we know nobody's done that in American culture throughout the 20th century...

Oh, I know, I know. It was the "sitting still" phrasing that upset you and sent you on a crusading tirade...the same kind of tirade that you rake the apostle Paul over the coals for saying "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission {a type of "sitting still," doncha think?}." (1 Tim. 2:11).

And, of course, The Crusader believes that not just Luther screwed up by pointing to women's childbearing role, but Paul did as well: "But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propiety." (1 Tim. 2:15)

Well, at least that verse proves The Crusader's point about faith + works...can't get any more laborious than bearing kids.

27 posted on 07/10/2003 10:26:37 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
Late in life, Luther apologized for his anti-Semitic remarks. Convenient for you to leave that out...

Kind of like pointing out that the Amazing Grace author (Newton) was a slave trader...while failing to mention that he was a repenting ex- slave trader.

28 posted on 07/10/2003 10:28:23 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

You idiot Luther! Scripturally, we all know demonic forces only inhabit pigs and it could ne'er happen to monkeys! Geez!

And snakes? Luther, don't take Genesis too seriously. Relax. Sober up.

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

Yup. We know this never happens! "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground." (Mark 9:17-18)..."...and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years." (Luke 13:11)

The nerve of Luther to paraphrase Scripture in such a raw manner!

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

Hey, I'm a parent of four teens and one pre-teen. What, I'd swear those cute and cuddly babes I held have morphed into teen-age imps at times.

32 posted on 07/10/2003 10:39:17 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously

What's wrong w/this? If you are going to sin in front of an omnipresent and omniscient God, then you better have some boldness to back it up.

I recall one school test that I didn't have a clue about re: answers. I was so desperate to at least get one answer right that when I went to turn in the test, I looked at one answer at the top of the pile, feigned that I had an "Oh, yeah" moment, and wrote in the answer--all in the immediate presence of the teacher.

Boy, was that a mistake. I was never more humiliated than to read my test result and to see his comments about the nerve I had to belittle him by thinking I could cheat so openly and so boldly--and to think I would get away with it.

If you're going to try to cheat on an omnipresent and omniscient educator, then I'll say it as strongly as Luther said his line: Be a cheater and cheat boldly (vigorously). For to do it any other way treats the teacher (God) as if He can't see what you're up to...and that belittles him even more.

33 posted on 07/10/2003 10:48:55 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
Wow, he was a weird one. But God used him anyway to accomplish some good.
88 posted on 07/11/2003 12:50:18 PM PDT by MEGoody
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To: TheCrusader
I like much of his theology, but as your quotes indicate, he was also a man of his times and promoter of superstition.

103 posted on 07/11/2003 8:16:10 PM PDT by bethelgrad (for God and country)
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To: TheCrusader
Simply, a man of his times.
240 posted on 08/07/2003 4:16:04 AM PDT by not-an-ostrich
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