Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots

NY Times ^ | July 1, 2003 | NICHOLAS WADE

[ZULU]

"Furthermore, the migration of the Celts from Scythia through the Mediterranean, Egypt, Rome (where their presence is documented) through to Galicia in Spain and on to Ireland is pretty compelling."

Although the Indo-Europeans may have originated in eastern Europe, all evidence indicates the Celts originated in central Europe, in what is now Austria and neighboring areas. They then spread south into north Italy (Cisapline Gaul, west into Switzerland and Gaul, southwest into northern Spain (the Celt-Iberians) and across the English Channel or Bay of Biscay into the British Isles. Another group spread south and east into Anatolia (see the Galatians in the Bible) and even as far as Egypt where they served as mercenaries.

From what I have read, the Celtic and Italic languages are actually closest to each other, both are closer to Tocharian, and Germaic is closer to them than it is to the Balto-Slavic languages.

[ZULU]

What actually happened is that Indo-European split into a number of subbranches. One of these gave rise to the Italic Languages, another to the Celtic, another to the Germanic, another to ancient Greek and another to Tocharian.

The Italic Languages consisted of languages like Osco-Umbrian, Sicanian, etc. and were eventually entirely replace by Latin. Latin then evolved into the modern Romance Languages. Early Germanic split into Old Norse or North Germanic which became Icelandic, Norweigan, Swedish, Faroese, and Danish, East Germanic or Gothic (extinct) and West Germaic which comprised Frisian, Old English (Anglo-Saxon), Franconian, and Old High German among many others).
Celtic gave rise to the various languages mentioned above.

Somehow a subgroup called Tocharian spread into Central Asia and evolved into two separate languages, Tocharian A and Tocharian B and died out by the end of the first millenium as a spoken language.

[Sabertooth]

Though the Gauls were strong enough to sack Rome in 390 B.C

Oh.

Dr. Forster said that his estimated date of 3200 B.C. for the arrival of Celtic speakers in England and Ireland was also much earlier than the usual date, 600 B.C., posited on the basis of archaeological evidence.

Dr. Forster said his method of comparing groups of languages was unfamiliar to historical linguists, many of whom study how words in a single language have changed over time. Asked what linguists thought of his method he said: "To be honest, they don't understand it, most of them. They don't even know what I'm talking about."

Ah.

"It's only a matter of time," ping.

[ClearCase_guy]

I think the journalist had an imprecise grasp of language classifications. Indo-European is a "Language Family". It is broken down into 12 "Branches". Of those 12, four are: Celtic, Latin, Hellenic (Greek), and Germanic. The Germanic branch is then broken down into "Languages", one of which is English.

Saying that Indo-European led to Celtic, Latin, Greek, and English is not wrong, but it's sloppy and (I feel) a bit misleading -- since it lumps English in with Language Branches and makes English seem a bit more significant than it is (some the standpoint of linguistic history/genealogy).

It's also incomplete, since, as you point out, there are many other branches and languages that are not mentioned at all. Again, it is not "wrong" to provide an incomplete list of what Indo-European led to, but it is perhaps a bit misleading.

[ZULU]

Thats news to me. Where did they come from? The only independent Celtic tribes at that time I know of were living in Ireland and northern Scotland, and the Swabians came from western Germany.

[ZULU]

Atavism is its own reward! Carry on!

[VadeRetro]

Though the Gauls were strong enough to sack Rome in 390 B.C.

Actually, the cisalpine ("this side of the Alps") Gauls did sack Rome early on, very temporarily reversing the Roman ascendancy. A citadel in the center of town held out, but most soldiers and citizens fled. Many houses were looted.

It proved a temporary hiccup.

[wideawake]

the reason the greeks still speak greek is that they never sacked rome. The Celts and the Carthaginians did and the former were decimated and the latters were "delenda est".

The Celts sacked Rome in 295 BC. Yet they retained their language until they were conquered by the Franks 800 years later.

The Carthaginians never sacked Rome - though Hannibal certainly tried very hard. The Carthaginian language (Punic) was eliminated in Africa by eliminating its speakers through genocide (and a well-deserved genocide it was), not by a large pool of subjects learning the language of their conquerors.

Punic was still spoken in the Near East but was gradually replaced by Aramaic.

[blam]

"From what I have read, the Celtic and Italic languages are actually closest to each other, both are closer to Tocharian, and Germaic is closer to them than it is to the Balto-Slavic languages. "

The ancestors of the 4,000 year old Caucasian mummies found in the Chinese desert spoke/wrote Tocharian A & B.

[Cacique]

bump for later

[ZULU]

I agree with you. Theodoric wanted to resuscitate the Roman Empire. The fact that his people were Arian Christians and the native Italians were Orthodox western Christians frustrated his efforts, as did the machinations of Justinian which destroyed his successor.

The "Dark Ages" were dark realtive to the depth of our knowledge of them. The Goths, etc, were frequently highly Romanized by that time as the Romans had become Germanicized. What many scholars think really created the collapse of western civilization was the eruption of Isalm and the closing of sea routes between western Europe and Byzantium by Islamic expansion into Iberia, Sicily, southern Italy and the Mediterranean area.

Most of the barbarian invaders were seeking incorporation into the empire, not the destruction of the empire. Charlemagne himself had himself crowned a Roman Emperor.

As for the civlization of the Turks, I suggest you read about the sack of Constantinople. Murder, rape, desecration of religious places and mass enslavement of the population was the outcome.

[wardaddy]

Are those the Tarim Basin remains where Caucazoids are still found?

[wideawake]

Read the posts carefully. You're putting words in my mouth.

I never mentioned "independent Celtic tribes" from Scotland or Ireland - I mentioned the Celtic people known as Gauls, who collaborated with the Swabian invasion of Cisalpine Gaul.

My original post said that the Gauls reconquered some territory from the Romans - not that tribes from Ireland or Scotland invaded Roman territory.

[Conspiracy Guy]

What can I say? It's a genetic thing.

[Sabertooth]

Interesting. How early?

[muawiyah]

Once again, the most ancient place names along the Danube are Celtic. The culture originated in Central Europe and moved down the Danube river to the Black Sea. That's how they ended up at Illium ("Troy").

The Milesians are probably the sea-faring Celts who traded all around the Mediterranean for many centuries. By the time of the Punic Wars the Celts in what are now North Africa, Spain and France were allied with the Cartheginians.

Upon the defeat of Carthage the sea-faring Celts switched their sympathies to Rome. It remained for Julius Caesar to change the minds of those who lived inland. Obviously the Romans knew the difference since they left the sea-faring guys alone with their Irish possessions although Rome did rebuild the Galician lighthouse at Brigantia.

[ZULU]

Some of those branches are supposedly more closely related. Linguists once distinguished between the Satem and Centum languages. I don't know if they still do, but the Germanic, Italic, Celtic, Greek (Hellenic) and Tocharian languages appear to fomr one sub family while the Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages form another and the Anatolic languages another still.

Journalist unfortunately possess a superficial grasp of anything they choose to review, be it in the scientific or the political realm. Unfortunately, it easier to point out their shortcomings in the scientific areas.

[muawiyah]

Yes, all that and then some, but it could have been much, much worse.

[blam]

Italian Archaeologist: Anatolia - Home To First Civilization On Earth

[ZULU]

A good book on that subject is "The Mystery of the Sesert Mummies" or something like that. I think Discovery or the Hsitory Channel had a number of specials on these people. SOme of them had red or blonde hair and were over 6 feet tall and wore plaid garments woven in an ancient western European manner.