Techies see jobs go overseas - Opposition to offshore outsourcing beginning to grow

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | 06/02/2003 | Carrie Kirby

[NCjim]

Daniel Soong waited in line at the dingy, low-ceilinged Employment Development Department in Pleasant Hill, hoping to find some clerical work or any kind of work at all.

At 30, this is not where the thin, neatly dressed computer programmer expected to be. Nor did he expect, after seven years in the technology industry, to have to move back into his parents' Pleasanton house.

"I would like to meet a girl and start a family, but that's not really possible unless you have a good job," he said.

Unlike many people who have lost their jobs during the economic slump, Soong does not hold out much hope that his career will get back on track when the economy picks up. He belongs to a growing contingent of technology professionals who believe that prospects for their field have permanently dimmed because companies are sending work overseas.

Soong and others like him are forming the beginning of an anti- offshoring movement. In California, Connecticut, New Jersey and Washington, groups of computer professionals are searching for ways -- from legislation to tax incentives -- to somehow slow the flow of high-paying jobs overseas.

[harpseal]

Re 112 my bolds the bolded text was not bold in teh original.

[Poohbah]

If you are good, you will be able to program for a living.

There's the part that no one wants to discuss.

[MEGoody]

"Putting American engineers out of work."

And the companies are opening themselves up for all kinds of security problems.

[MEGoody]

"Yeah, well playing with themselves the other 90% of the time doesn't help productivity."

Seems like you need a course in basic reading skills. Or are you being purposely dense?

[Lefty-NiceGuy]

One suggestiong is to tax international phone lines, so that business calls (like to service centers, and software groups) cost enough that it harmonizes the costs of doing business overseas with the cost of doing business here. Its not a tariff so the "free traders" can't yell protectionism. It is just a usage tax.
You're using it like a tariff. Some guy mentioned it before. The result may be the same. Companies may just move to Europe and avoid talking on the phone too much with the states.

Here's another problem: feasiblity. Companies can run phone conversations over encrypted channels through the internet or leased lines. I suppose you could just tax all bandwidth. Right now the US is the center of the world as far as network topography. All lines go to New York just like all roads went to Rome. It would be dumb to invest government money to build great backbones, and then tax the crap out of them so nobody will use them.

It's globalism:
Play the game best and you win.
Don't play, isolate yourself, and don't lose.
Play it worse then the next guy, and you'll get screwed.

People all over the world are complaining about it. Usually we're "winning". People usually don't complain then.

[harpseal]

actually people have discussed teh If you are good concept before but there are many very good programmers who can not find work becuase tehy do not have the right accidental skills set. If the job requirement says Cobol 390 version 2.11783 or C+++ and the programmer has worked with every version of COBOL 390 except v2.11783 and C, C++, and C+++ then there is a rejection for the slot even though that person might be the best person for the job.

Further it will be time to discuss competition when the outsourcing ceases to be sunsidized by the US givernemnt and its tax policies and by foreign governments. see the history of traffs and how they helped build the strong American economy. In the 19th century and early 20th it was slaveholders in general who were the biggest advicates for low tarriffs. Now it was I believe Milton Friedman who made the case for free trade with his criticisms of the Smoot Hawley tarriffs of the late 20's for supposedly exacerbating the world wide depression. The European Common market proved a large market of nations with roughly similar standards of living and civil iberties can help power expansion. i have yet to see a case made that the use of slave labor in a free market with nations that have a high standard of living does anything but create stresses upon that society that lead to war. If you can make that case please do.

[Drango]

Seems like you need a course in basic reading skills. Or are you being purposely dense?

My reading skills are apparently better than your humor skills.

[Lefty-NiceGuy]

What about making a penalty for any company that goes off shore. You can go off shore but once a company leaves this country they are banned from selling their product back to us.
It's not that easy: Company A is a 100% US company. They sell out to company B in Indochina. They lay everyone off in the states they would use for production. They sell stuff under the old brand name. Which step should they not be able to do?

[Poohbah]

actually people have discussed teh If you are good concept before but there are many very good programmers who can not find work becuase tehy do not have the right accidental skills set. If the job requirement says Cobol 390 version 2.11783 or C+++ and the programmer has worked with every version of COBOL 390 except v2.11783 and C, C++, and C+++ then there is a rejection for the slot even though that person might be the best person for the job.

If the job requires that experience, and the prospective candidate doesn't have that experience, then the candidate is NOT the best person for the job.

Further it will be time to discuss competition when the outsourcing ceases to be sunsidized by the US givernemnt and its tax policies and by foreign governments. see the history of traffs and how they helped build the strong American economy.

I would suggest reading Friedman's U.S. Cruisers: An Illustrated Design History and Hallahan's Misfire: The History of How America's Small Arms Have Failed Our Military for counterexamples of what happened to America's military-industrial base when protectionist policies were in place: America was rightly regarded as a militarily backward nation into the early 20th century. We wound up being forced to buy entire warships from Britain in 1898 because the American shipbuilding business had been shielded from competition in the civilian field, and in order to produce an acceptable rifle (the 1903 Springfield), we ended up committing massive patent infringment.

Only AFTER the Spanish-American War and the threat of Congress buying more ships from overseas did the major yards start investing in better production plant.

Now it was I believe Milton Friedman who made the case for free trade with his criticisms of the Smoot Hawley tarriffs of the late 20's for supposedly exacerbating the world wide depression.

Quite correct; with domestic demand declining, and foreign markets closed off by retaliatory tariffs, a recession and market correction turned into a full-fledged world-wide depression.

[harpseal]

It was not my proposal so I can not further define or defend it unless it is further defined. My proposals are to eliminate the expediture of government funds to subsidize the offshore outsourcing and the end of the H1b and L1 visa programs.

[Poohbah]

What about making a penalty for any company that goes off shore. You can go off shore but once a company leaves this country they are banned from selling their product back to us.

In that case, If I owned the company, I'd simply cash out and close up shop.

BTW, who is John Galt?

[harpseal]

I would suggest reading Friedman's U.S. Cruisers: An Illustrated Design History and Hallahan's Misfire: The History of How America's Small Arms Have Failed Our Military for counterexamples of what happened to America's military-industrial base when protectionist policies were in place: America was rightly regarded as a militarily backward nation into the early 20th century. We wound up being forced to buy entire warships from Britain in 1898 because the American shipbuilding business had been shielded from competition in the civilian field, and in order to produce an acceptable rifle (the 1903 Springfield), we ended up committing massive patent infringment.

I have read that book and I found his arguments quite unconvincing. I note that the .30-40 Krag had as its primary problem the side box magazine which was not a failure of industry as much as it was a failure of Navy design of the same time was an excellent military rifle whose cartridge army officers sspected because they did resisted going to a less tha .30 cal cartridge. Further the Lee design of what became the enfield rifle was later a marked sucess used by teh US Miltary in WWI and by the British military through WWII. Now clearly in the 1860's the US shipyards were the only places producing ironclads. The resistance to shipyard improvements was as much from Congressional pork barrel interference with the purchase of new ships and Naval staff inertia as it was from any tarriff. The purchase of British made vessels was at the time quite fashionable and was as much a statement of desire to have what were acknowledged as the worlds state of teh art warships as it was a desire to actually have the best. Much as a purchase of a Rolex watch is not merely about the desire to have a durable accurate timepiece.

As to Milton Friedman and his case as I said he has not proven it and there are other economists who have not accepted his case as proven. acceptance is an article of faith. Germany Austria and most of Europe were experiencing depression before the Smoot Hawley tariffs. Further most industialized nations did have tarriffs at the time.

Now as to yoru statement about the job requirements while American Programmers may well fit the job and be able to adapt to the requirements a foreign programmer will often in my experience be ginev a rsume that exactly matches the posted requirements. I note that I once saw a resume at a client site where the H1B programmer coming in had 2 years of experience with a software product that was a typo. The original product had been out six months and he had not worked for the vendor. The HR department and the senior management was ready to bring him aboard when this was pointed ouut by me someone. I was working a different part of the project then I was paid to rework what he had done after his contrcat on that project was over. Because he was so inexpensive they put him on another project to foul that up also. of cvourse to the accountants he looked like a vbargain because they counted bodies and costs only not quality output.

While it is clear that management may make any requirements they wish for a job the above reference was to the wisdom of the management at some of these companies. Now eventually a free market will punish these managers and my concerns are amintaining a Free market and getting rid of subsidies forthe export of jobs. Further, we obviously need a technical base to support our military even if sometimes our miltary does not adopt teh best solutions. i note Hiram Maxim was from Maine and invented his machine gun in the USA but the US army was slow to adopt said weapon.

However, the protectionism of our tarriff structure it may be argued encouraged his innovation.

[clamper1797]

Though I recognize his veteran status .... I am taken aback by his position on the topic. In my humble opinion, he does NOT have the life experience (private sector) to present intelligent/informed arguments pertaining to the topic. I am doubly surprized that a former military man could take such an anti-American stance.

Most of the Pro H-1B "free traitors" are motivated some vested interest such as greed. He however does NOT have a dog in this hunt other than his stock in SUN which is NOT doing very well right now anyway. You would hope that when a person like myself who is also former military BUT is and has been waist deep in the situation speaks about it thathe would listen and take my word for it instead of babbling about something he knows very little about and claiming I'm some sort of slacker. Especially, given that I helped design several electronics systems in his F-14 that may have saved his a$$.

[helper]

You have pretty much duplicated my thoughts. I survived the demise of the electronics manufacturering industry from the late 1960's on.

I went into the service end, and later after learning the ropes established my own company. After a lot of sacrifice and hard work it has matured and is doing well.

Suprising as it may seem it is hard to find good, well educated people with a broad background that can learn or are willing to learn a new skill even at my expense. They all want to sit around and hope their skill will be resurrected, or the Govt will do something. I think many were so narrowly focused that they are afraid to take a wide excursion from their previous line.

I have a good friend, a former network Admin with a EE degree. Lost his network job, took another as a EE, lost that, went to school for heating and AC for 6 months. Now he is doing very well, loves his job, because of his educational level he knows how to relate to customers, and in 6 months with his new employeer the top employee. I had hoped to hire him now I don't know if I can afford him.

There are a great many service related fields that are in dire need of educated people. They might not have fancy titles, but they can pay just about as well and be fun too.

I remember what Runion of the Postal Service said when he initiated the first major overhall, "If your hands don't touch the mail in the Postal Service your job is in jepordy"

[PatrioticAmerican]

Two things:

1. If companies want to build overseas, then let them keep their lousy product over there. They shouldn’t be allowed to sell them here.

2. If they spend money on labor overseas then they should not be allowed to declare such expenses as tax breaks. Why should we give tax breaks to companies so they can send that money overseas? Tax breaks are to help companies invest in themselves so that the American economy can prosper, not India's.

[hedgetrimmer]

It's globalism:

When did the American people ever get to have a dialog with their government about gobalism? We should have had a voice, but instead, the decision making has been taken out of the hands of the American people, and put into the hands of the WTO, IMF, G8 and yes, the UN.

You've probably seen the term "corporate governace" somewhere? You are seeing the destruction of soverign governments (they hide the fact this is their goal) through trade globalization. Anyone who objects is called a protectionist, a neanderthal -- all kinds of names, but the fact is, that policies developed by the WTO and G8 become federal policy without so much as a whisper of debate. Our elected government has become irelevant to our own governance, because governance is now by corporation and not elected bodies. You all that claim that globalisation is good and we must all lie down before it, are promoting the death of our country and Constitution. How many times does it have to be said, with no guarantee of freedom by our Constitution, it won't be long before we are all serfs again? That is the most maddening and frustrating point, because most people submitting to globalization don't understand or don't care that they are really signing over any hope of remaining a free country to corporate interests via the G8 and WTO.

Yes some people do put PRINCIPLE before PROFIT. Maintaining the PRINCIPLES on which our government was founded seems to be of little interest to the free traders. I mourn for my children and theirs because the are selling out the legacy of freedom that America has thrived on, to replace it with the idea that humans, indivduals are not worthy of freedom, that they are part of the factory and have to trust that they will be the recipients of "good corporate governance" which by the way it completely at the whim of the corporation-- there is no Constitution or bill of rights in the world of "corporate governance".

[samuel_adams_us]

Say I was a fortune 500 company and I outsourced my IT to india. My company makes financial software and it is installed in a majority of the fortune 500 companies. My new release has a ton of bugs in it, my Indian programmers didn't do a good job this time, and my customers are going to sue me for the their costs associated with down time. What legal recourse would I have against the Indian software companies?


Next scenario. I have hired a software outsourcing firm in India to do my software development. Not knowing that this software company was owned by a terrorist organization, I hire them to write my next version of software and I deliver that software to all of my fortune 500 financial customers. The software has a defect in it to exit and not run upon reaching the date of 01/01/2005. On Jan 01, 2005 what happens?

[MEGoody]

"My reading skills are apparently better than your humor skills."

I wasn't attempting to be humorous. You seem to have some major communication issues as well.

If your reading skills were good, you would have seen the explanation as to what the other 90% of a programmer's time was spent on. Obviously, you did not comprehend the writer's explanation.

Maybe it's time for you to go back to school and brush up on some basic skills.

[clamper1797]

BTW did you read the analogy I wrote the other day ????

The situation is like two men sitting at opposite ends of a boat thats sinking from one end. The guy at the sinking end yells to the guy on the other side ... "help !!!!" the boat is sinking. I'm bailing as fast as I can but one person is not fast enough to keep up with the water ... if you help we can bail the water out of the boat and then fix the leak. The other guy says with his arms folded and nose in the air ... I don't know what's wrong with you ... I'm high and dry ... and I'm not going to help ... after all YOU choose to sit on THAT side of the boat ... you're just a whiner. A few minutes go by and the arrogant ass on the formally dry side is starting to get wet ... he says ... OH MY God you're right !!! the boat IS sinking I'll help you now ... response from the other side ... blub blub blub

[HarryDunne]

...the elites are all buying fractional jet ownerships now.

Thanks for the 411. I had never heard of fractional jet ownership before.