[DainBramage]

Um excuse me, but teachers are private citizens too, and I doubt it takes into account the hours they spend at home grading papers, doing lesson plans, not counting putting up with your snot nosed kid who wont ever bring in his home work.

If its such good pay, give it a try.

[Clara Lou]

I'm pretty sure that Texas teachers don't earn more than the people in the professions you mentioned. Of course, we don't have unions negotiating for us, either, and we couldn't strike if we wanted to.

[mrfixit514]

Oh boy. Here we go again. I haven't read any responses but I can imagine. If the education bashers have made it to this thread it will be about how sorry public schools are and how teachers don't deserve higher salaries.

[Beck_isright]

Gee, if this doesn't sound like another post for advocating stealing more tax dollars at gun point for the teacher's union, I don't know what does. Please, sing to a choir that is on DU.

[Brave New World]

"Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters."


Can you post these hourly rates or provide a link to them?
Thanks.

[El Gato]

If teaching is so lucrative, for so little work, why do so many young teachers leave the profession after just a few years? The turnover rate, in terms of leaving the profession, rather than just moving within it, is nearly astronomical compared to just about anything except the miliary. The difference being that many people enter the military never intending to make it a career. Few enter teaching with the intention of only doing it for few years.

[JackOfVA]

A few weeks ago, I spent an hour or two reading our school budget (Fairfax County, Virginia). It's on line at
http://www.fcps.edu/DFnS/OBS/Approved03/Approved03.pdf

The teacher salary table ranges from a low of $34,750 / year (1st year teacher, 193 days/year schedule) to $85,542 / year (20+ years).

In addition, advanced education earns a supplement to the pay check, ranging from $1,285/year for 15 credits towards Masters, up to $9,277/year for PhD.

And, there are additional salary supplements for various extra duties, such as Yearbook Advisor ($3,568) down to $1,256 for being the Junior Class advisor.

The foregoing are teacher salaries, not for those in a supervisory position.

It's not difficult to reach close to $100,000 / year for a Fairfax County teacher with a PhD and long employment plus one "add on" responsibility.

In my view (under graduate degree in Electrical Engineering, a year of EE graduate work, 3 years in Law School) Fairfax County is more than generous, particularly considering, as Walter Williams often points out, students in the College of Education at almost any university have the lowest college board entrance exam scores.

And, as far as "free" work after hours goes, Until I retired a couple years ago, the only job I ever worked at where I didn't consistently work far more than 40 hours/week, was a 4 year stint at the Federal Government. In the private sector, once you are outside the hourly wage category, you work enough hours to get the job done.

Incidently, our local property taxes in Fairfax County have increased 15% to 18% a year for the last 4 years, the vast majority of which revenue goes to fund the school system. However, the Superintendent of Schools has been interviewed in the local paper complaining that the taxpayers of the county were not adequately funding the school system. We now pay more in county property taxes than the entire mortgage, taxes and insurance costs were for the first house we had in the County.

Jack

[Capriole]

Without disputing the validity of these statistics as they're applied to architects, university professors, etc., I can say from personal experience that the teachers here in the DC area make much more than the typical reporter or editor. In these fields compensation is low for the same basic economic reason it's often low for artists, singers, dancers, skiers, horseback riders, and nonexistent for others who want to engage in pleasurable activities: there are lots of talented people who can do this work, so potential employers don't have to offer much to get employees to do it. As a writer you're supposed to be so grateful you've gotten a writing job that you should practically pay the employer for the privilege. Other professions don't have a powerful, extremely rich national union that engages in nonstop lobbying and constantly drives up the rates of compensation for teachers.

Though personally if I was sentenced to work as a statistician or mechanical engineer, no remuneration could adequately compensate me for my misery.

[HostileTerritory]

I'm certain there is a useful discussion to be had about the quality of public education, but this gentleman's statistics for "educational productivity" are a lousy starting point.

1. A very large percentage of kids are taking the SATs these days, as opposed to just the top levels that were taking them 20 and 40 years ago. With no change in test-taking ability, the average would still have declined as a result.

2. Educational costs have risen out of proportion to inflation because of the expensive responsibility of caring for special needs children. In the "good old days," they would have been shut up in their bedrooms all day. You can have one teacher with 30 honors English students but no way can you have one with 30 special needs children. Needless to say the rising overall costs has nothing to do with what sort of education the honors English kids are getting.

I'm in no way defending everything that goes on in the name of public schooling but bogus "educational productivity" stats do the opposing side more harm than good.

[Timesink]

Damn. I came here hoping for a good old-fashioned reporter-bashing thread, and instead it's a good old-fashioned commie public school teacher-bashing thread.

Oh well, I like those too. *gets out the lawnchair*

[summer]

This type of teacher salary information is always misleading because a teacher's pay is based on the number of years of experiene, meaning, new teachers who earn $22,000 are out there too -- and, are decades away from earning as much as other professionals. The location of the teacher's employment also counts a lot as well. Some teachers can earn $50,000 after 30 years, while others will only earn $35,000 after 30 years. But, yes, looking at the most experienced teachers, at the top of the pay scale, in the best paid places, then, it certainly "appears" that teachers earn a lot.

[FLAMING DEATH]

I see a lot of people taking the easy way out and blaming the ills of the educational system on the teachers. After all, they are the most visible elements of our educational system. This tunnel vision is partly why things are in the shape that they are in now. Think about this for a moment if you will...

Some claim that teachers don't challenge students enough, but few ponder the effects of federal laws, such as inclusion of special education students in the mainstream classrooms (federally mandated) or the No Child Left Behind act (do yourself a favor...go to Google and look this one up...you might be astounded), which basically makes it impossible to allow excellent students excel or take on classes and assignments that are on their ability level (also federally mandated). If a teacher provides an off level text, either from a higher grade level or a lower one, this is considered illegal. For example, if little Johnny shows an accelerated ability to read the standard text and therefore is given a textbook that is two or three grade levels ahead, the school can be put on probation if discovered. This happened two years ago in our school, and No Child Left Behind will exacerbate the problem. I have seen Individualized Education Plans (IEP - federal law - look it up for yourself) that state that a particular student should be passed if they make a "reasonable effort", regardless of the grade they actually get. I haven't talked to a single teacher in my school who is a proponent of allowing students to pass without doing the work, even those who teach special education students. But basically, parents have carte blanche to pick and choose the educational practices that will be applied to their students. (Also check out the federal 504 plan...this is a monster too).

How can you teach Algebra to a bright eighth grader, while the kid who sits next to him has to count from a bag of M&M's just to get to ten? By law, both must be in the SAME clasroom...and the smart kid serves as a "norming peer" for the slower one. And for those of you who blame teachers for the kid who can't count, realize that PARENTS can do far more to ensure the success of their child than any teacher ever could. In fact, I can think of only a handful of children who had caring parents that don't have a successful educational experience. My mother made sure I could read BEFORE I entered Kindergarten. My brother could spell "rhinocerous" by the time he reached first grade. A billion math or science or reading lessons will be wasted if a child doesn't think that it is important to learn it (the catch phrase among my more delinquent 7th graders is, "I don't care"). If you sit at home in the recliner with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other, cursing the teacher for not making your kid a genius, then obviously the problem is not the teacher, whose hands are basically tied from a disciplinary standpoint.

Speaking of discipline, some claim that it is lacking. I agree, but again, people scream "It's the teachers!" and look no further. They don't realize that some kids aren't held to the same standards as others. I have had special education students, who are, again, mainstreamed with the rest of the school population (by law), curse me to my face in terms that would make a sailor blush. They know they can get away with it. The "special ed" tag has become a license for anarchy. Also, it is not uncommon for administrators to avoid punishing students to avoid lawsuits, and in our school, after assaulting students and a bus driver, one child was returned to school after his parents challenged his suspension. He too, was special ed, but I have also seen mainstream students' parents come in and back down the sternest administrators with the threat of a lawsuit. This is why many teachers join the NEA...they provide liability insurance against lawsuits. I am not a member of the NEA because I loathe what the group stands for, but when you fear a lawsuit every time you make incidental contact with a student, or try to administer a stern punishment, you have few options. I am considering joining to protect myself from a lawsuit that would basically end my career and bankrupt me.

People also claim that teaching is a cushy job. For some, it may be, when all that's considered is the three months off during the year. But, again, working under fear of lawsuits, potentially violent students that cannot be excluded by administration and the general frustration at parents who become riled when stern disciplinary action is taken against their kids, I would not call it easy. Not to mention almost constant documentation of behavior problems and being in a room for eight hours with 30 or more people whose only goal is to keep you from doing your job. Summer is the only time I can relax, not wondering if I will be in court within the next week.

Also, and this seems to be the real sticking point of this whole discussion, the idea that teachers earn a lot of money seems to really upset some people. I don't know where all these $50,000 a year educators work, but I do know that next year is my ninth year teaching, and it will be the first year that I may gross more than $30,000. I'm sure there are places where you could make $50,000 a year, but I don't think I'd want to work in such schools, as I'm sure the high salary is akin to combat pay.

And, I can't figure the people who think it is okay to seek a job that pays well and perhaps even wish for more money while they work at that job, but somehow, teachers should be altruistic and just settle for whatever they get, because they're doing it "for the kids" and they "love their job". Don't get me wrong, I think teachers should love their job, as that will make them care about their students, which is essential. And I think they should be working "for the kids", because that's kinda what education is all about. But, I don't think anyone should get upset when they want to up their salaries, just as you or anyone else might.

Despite all this, I love my job, I've learned to live comfortably on what I make, and sometimes, even though my best efforts go unrewarded, I can see where some encouragement or "tough love" makes a difference and motivates a kid to put forth their best efforts. I also know that the MAJORITY of the teachers I know are just like me, despite what people say, and are often stifled and hogtied by the higher-ups who think they know best.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting that a blind eye be turned to incompetence when it presents itself, and I have seen my share of incompetence, as most people in most workplaces have. I am saying that there's more to all this that what many people see (or choose to see), and what YOU may perceive as apathy may actually be adherence to some stupid law somewhere. But teachers, being the most visible facet of the school system, bear the brunt of the public ire.

Try this: go with your child to school someday, and see what really goes on. Don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions, as most teachers would be happy to tell you the reasons why they deal with situations as they do. I welcome this type of parental involvement, but despite many invitations, in my nine years of teaching, only three parents have been in my classroom to observe firsthand.

And above all, vote for people who will change the school system for the better...namely, by allowing or encouraging competition or, even better, privatizing the whole thing...

[glory]

I believe it. There are some pretty generous salaries here in central Ohio and while the teachers are screaming to pass levies for the kids, not a one is willing to dip into the 80 percent of the budget that is their benefits and salaries so they don't cut ACADEMIC programs for children.
I've said before that I don't think people will tolerate this endlessly, as teachers surpass what most folks are making, and their child still comes home an uneducated brat, whether it's warranted or not, people will place the blame with teachers and begin to question what they are making. I think a big part of the problem is that people still think that teachers make 19k a year with few benefits, I know I have surprised some locals when I told them the average salary for teach here is a little over 50k and they pay no premiums or copays on their insurance. No offense to teachers, but I think registered nurses are worth far more than teachers...far more!

[Aquinasfan]

"Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters."

N-E-A. It's not about the children.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Pingarooni.

[Cronos]

Teacher's ought to earn more than scumbag editors and reporters.