Teachers earn more than editors & reporters

email ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

The Summer 2003 edition of the education journal "Education Next" has statistics on teacher pay from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that match my own research. To quote: "Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters." The statistics exclude benefits, which are far richer for teachers than for private-sector employees.

On a related note, the web site of a private citizen has great graphs and stats on government spending. One graph shows how education productivity has declined by 70 percent over the last 40 years, based on the ratio of SAT scores to inflation-adjusted per-pupil spending. The graph can be found at:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm

Regards,

Craig J. Cantoni

Capstone Consulting Group

480-661-8175

Fax 480-661-8155

[El Gato]

1) Put the education department under the department of defense.

No, just eliminate it entirely. 2) Encourage retired people to volunteer their services to teach, thus costing us taxpayers nothing.

If these volunteers are forced to work under the same conditions and restrictions as teachers, they won't volunteer for long.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't some lousy teachers, there are, and they are hard to get rid of, but not impossible, and that is the job of principals, superintendents and school boards. They need to do it. The elected school boards tend to be the biggest wimps on that, followed byt the superintendents, in some districts.

In the military, when battles are lost, do they fire the dogfaces, the cannon cockers, or even the cooks. No they fire the generals, the colonels and on down as necessary. Or they used to. But then they also used to fire the superindents and principals. Of course even they aren't as much in control nor as much at fault as state and federal education departments and the Legislatures and Congresses that created and empowered them.

[the808bass]

What a lame attempt to dis-credit what I wrote.

Nobody needed to discredit what you wrote. You did a fine job of that all by yourself.

[the808bass]

I am perfectly happy and secure, I just don't tote the party line you are used to hearing. And unlike the children you yell at, I am not afraid of you.

I'm sure we'd all hate to run into you on a day when you were a little unevenly tempered if this is you in your happy place.

[Dianna]

Yes the teacher works hard, but no harder than I did as an office manager in a psychiatrists office. And she only works 180 days to get double my pay.

My post was in response to someone who was particularly nasty and personally insulting. You seem like a different type altogether!

If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem with your sister and her friends has much less to do with them being teachers, but being liberal or having had an easy skate through life.

The point I was trying to make is that here at FR we are all pretty much on the same page so why are we attacking each other? I think we can assume that the teachers posting here aren't lazy, stupid and out to soak taxpayers. Teachers in the trenches AND involved parents can work together to generate solutions or at least wake the general public up to what some of the real issues are.

We won't accomplish anything if we spend our time fighting each other.

[netmilsmom]

>>We won't accomplish anything if we spend our time fighting each other.<<

You are so right!!

[glory]

I believe it. There are some pretty generous salaries here in central Ohio and while the teachers are screaming to pass levies for the kids, not a one is willing to dip into the 80 percent of the budget that is their benefits and salaries so they don't cut ACADEMIC programs for children.
I've said before that I don't think people will tolerate this endlessly, as teachers surpass what most folks are making, and their child still comes home an uneducated brat, whether it's warranted or not, people will place the blame with teachers and begin to question what they are making. I think a big part of the problem is that people still think that teachers make 19k a year with few benefits, I know I have surprised some locals when I told them the average salary for teach here is a little over 50k and they pay no premiums or copays on their insurance. No offense to teachers, but I think registered nurses are worth far more than teachers...far more!

[glory]

When a teacher is making over 50k a year, has ample time off in addition and has healthcare with NO PREMIUMS AND NO COPAYS, damn right he/she does not deserve more money. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who does TRAINING or teaching for a living in the private sector making that kind of money with those kinds of benefits. And if you all think teachers are worth that much, why not reward the homeschooling parents who are doing an exemplary job with a refund of THEIR OWN tax dollars that are getting funneled to a teacher's salary?

[glory]

I hear you lizma..if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If I had not made the commitment to homeschool my own, I would definiately consider getting my certification because I'm so sick of fighting the good fight. People refuse to stand up to this monster because they plain and simple, do not know how or do not want to handle their own children. Their own lack of creativity and initiative reveals the problem with the ps education they received. You should hear the bellyaches over here because extracurriculars were cut. You'd think the earth had spun off of it's axle--what are these kids to do. They'll get in trouble--God forbid we the parents have to reach into our fairly affluent pockets(OR CALENDER) to actually make sure little Suzy or Johnny has something to do with their time. Have these idiots ever thought of forming a community league for various sports and then *gasp* ALL children in the community could participate(much like the younger leagues) and not just those enrolled in ps.

[glory]

Parent involvement is a BIG plus in a child's education>>

While this is true, I am so sick of hearing this argument from teachrs. If this is the biggest factor in a child's future(which I believe is true), than we get back to the argument of why even have publicly funded schools to begin with. For those interested in their children getting an education or supportive of them to do so, let them fund their child's own schooling(or in the case of it not being affordable there are scholarships and vouchers, but the parent must show a willingness to encourage their children to learn)...stop sending moneys into the great vacuums of the school system when you know you can not teach kids who don't want to be taught.
Of course, a school won't start expelling troubled kids anymore because that takes money out of their pocket. Yes, I know folks don't like it, but I do think there are some kids/families we should give up on and stop providing a taxpayer funded babysitting service for these folks.

So what is your answer, oh great teacher? Status quo? Or do you all admit, even if it means less teachers, that we start focusing on the kids who want to be there and whose parents are interested in school as something more than a publically funded babysitter? Do you advocate a major overhaul of the system in the interest of giving parents choices and making the BEST decisions for kids and not just what is best for your pocketbook?

[glory]

implement user fees (tuition) to a significant extent


Good luck. I live in a community that is growing more and more affluent by the day. These parents don't even want to pay user fees for extracurriculars and want every taxpayer to "fill the gap".

[glory]

Further, it is the unions that whine, not teachers. The fact is (since you allow simple assertions to be fact) that the vast majority of teachers don't do it for the money - they don't need or want a lot of money...otherwise they'd do something different.>>

Rubbish! Then why don't teachers make a "Principled" stance against their unions when they tell them to walk out? If they really care so much about the kids? I'm sure if the union tried to bully that many teachers, we'd get lot's of news for it and the union would be history.
I know too many teachers who love the security their union brings them to know you are talking out of the side of your mouth. Sure, they may love the kids they teach too, but it takes a sideburner to making sure they are getting their fair shake. Seen it time and time again.

[Principled]

I like your arguments - they're a lot like mine. I spend a lot of time talking to people about this. It's not unrealistic to see this happening withing ten-15 years.

The opposition I hear is
-poor folks won't be able to attend
-the unions have a host of propaganda b/c they would lose power
-what would we do with kids who choose not to attend

Of course you and I likely have the same answers to these objections, as demonstrated.

Do you take any action to promote your position? If so, what? I imagine there are teachers who oppose privatization who you must dodge?

[glory]

So then would you advocate a decreased emphasis on mandatory attendence then? So that the teens can get on with whatever they have chosen in their lives say after 8th grade if they want? Those who choose too can attend until 12th?
BTW, I see your tone, but I don't think anything is wrong with families who are keeping tradition and that may be to work straight out of school. Why do you have a problem with accepting that not everyone will go on to college or wants to?

[Principled]

There are teachers doing just what you want. In Georgia, you have not only the option of whether to join a union, but you can ensure that if you do join, your fees will not go toward political activity (yeah right).

Nevertheless, my wife's school is about half and half union/non-union. THe move is toward non-union and is steady and significant. Most who are in the union have been in it for years. Nearly every new teacher declines. They get their liability insurance alone and apart from the union- which has always been their selling point (along with political action). But younger folks don't like the politics of the union and are foregoing it.

THanks to constant complaints in the media about the unions, they are shrinking.

I don't begrudge another profession simply because it has perceived security. Do you?

And please explain what you mean by "talking out of both sides of your mouth".

[Principled]

I have no problem whatsoever with indivivduals choosing to do as they wish with their lives. Indeed, it is that idea which I promote.

CHOOSE to go to school, not be forced. CHOOSE whatever you and your parents decide, but don't allow government to force you into making decisions.

When did you start thinking I had a problem with individuals who choose not to attend college? Was this comment intended for me?

[Aquinasfan]

"Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters."

N-E-A. It's not about the children.

[glory]

Look I have sympathy for your wife, but it's hard to feel much more than that when your wife supports "the system". Get back to me when she supports releasing mandatory attendance or school choice and then we'll talk.

[glory]

Then help make it happen! It seems teachers would have the biggest say in the union. So if it's split like you seem to imply, where is your influence?

[Principled]

I did not indicate that I had any particular influence. But I do what I can to promote the idea of privatization thru community contacts and my elected reps.

I also spend a lot of time talking to wife's coworkers about it.

And teachers do NOT have a say at all in the union. You know not of what you speak in this regard. The unions are political figures making huge salaries from dues. They sit in state capitals and in washington lobbying liberal agendas. THe rank and file (public school) teacher is NOT liberal- that is anurban legend. If you were to measure the political affiliation of teachers and compare it to the affiliations of the gen pop, you would find a skew to the right for teacher. They, more than any other group, see and feel the results of liberal, pc, union-driven policies.

Of course it is Georgia I speak of. Who knows what Kalifornia is doing.

[glory]

I'm sorry, but we are NOT on the same page if you think that homeschooling is keeping your kids at home and flipping the rest of the community the bird. We are NOT on the same page if you think homeschooling does NOT make a difference. I have never understood this attitude from teachers. If anything you should feel a kinship with homeschoolers as a fellow teacher, instead you have a p*ss poor attitude that only you, oh mighty teacher with the certification of "truth" is "making a difference".
Let's switch that around shall we? I could choose to put my children in school and vote to raise levies on myself and everyone else and flip off the people who derive no benefit from the service they pay for. I could choose to put my children in the schools and flip them off as they go, after all I have better things to do with my time than actually teach them myself right?
Argh, your reply was not really what some of us needed to see that teachers really want something different than what is already there.