Teachers earn more than editors & reporters

email ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

The Summer 2003 edition of the education journal "Education Next" has statistics on teacher pay from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that match my own research. To quote: "Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters." The statistics exclude benefits, which are far richer for teachers than for private-sector employees.

On a related note, the web site of a private citizen has great graphs and stats on government spending. One graph shows how education productivity has declined by 70 percent over the last 40 years, based on the ratio of SAT scores to inflation-adjusted per-pupil spending. The graph can be found at:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm

Regards,

Craig J. Cantoni

Capstone Consulting Group

480-661-8175

Fax 480-661-8155

[JackOfVA]

A few weeks ago, I spent an hour or two reading our school budget (Fairfax County, Virginia). It's on line at
http://www.fcps.edu/DFnS/OBS/Approved03/Approved03.pdf

The teacher salary table ranges from a low of $34,750 / year (1st year teacher, 193 days/year schedule) to $85,542 / year (20+ years).

In addition, advanced education earns a supplement to the pay check, ranging from $1,285/year for 15 credits towards Masters, up to $9,277/year for PhD.

And, there are additional salary supplements for various extra duties, such as Yearbook Advisor ($3,568) down to $1,256 for being the Junior Class advisor.

The foregoing are teacher salaries, not for those in a supervisory position.

It's not difficult to reach close to $100,000 / year for a Fairfax County teacher with a PhD and long employment plus one "add on" responsibility.

In my view (under graduate degree in Electrical Engineering, a year of EE graduate work, 3 years in Law School) Fairfax County is more than generous, particularly considering, as Walter Williams often points out, students in the College of Education at almost any university have the lowest college board entrance exam scores.

And, as far as "free" work after hours goes, Until I retired a couple years ago, the only job I ever worked at where I didn't consistently work far more than 40 hours/week, was a 4 year stint at the Federal Government. In the private sector, once you are outside the hourly wage category, you work enough hours to get the job done.

Incidently, our local property taxes in Fairfax County have increased 15% to 18% a year for the last 4 years, the vast majority of which revenue goes to fund the school system. However, the Superintendent of Schools has been interviewed in the local paper complaining that the taxpayers of the county were not adequately funding the school system. We now pay more in county property taxes than the entire mortgage, taxes and insurance costs were for the first house we had in the County.

Jack

[ECM]

I assume you're being sarcastic...rather, I hope you are ;)

[Principled]

You sir seem to speak from ignorance.

[Capriole]

Without disputing the validity of these statistics as they're applied to architects, university professors, etc., I can say from personal experience that the teachers here in the DC area make much more than the typical reporter or editor. In these fields compensation is low for the same basic economic reason it's often low for artists, singers, dancers, skiers, horseback riders, and nonexistent for others who want to engage in pleasurable activities: there are lots of talented people who can do this work, so potential employers don't have to offer much to get employees to do it. As a writer you're supposed to be so grateful you've gotten a writing job that you should practically pay the employer for the privilege. Other professions don't have a powerful, extremely rich national union that engages in nonstop lobbying and constantly drives up the rates of compensation for teachers.

Though personally if I was sentenced to work as a statistician or mechanical engineer, no remuneration could adequately compensate me for my misery.

[ladylib]

About 1 out of 4 children in my district is Asian (Korean, Chinese, Japanese). Parents are involved in the schools and their kids' education. I don't know what the problem is. I don't even know if it's much of a problem when you come right down to it. It is to some people.

We spend about $11,000 a year on our public school students. The little parochial school down the street and around the corner spends about $4,000 (or at least that is what the subsidized tuition is). Same demographics -- 25% Asian kids, some of whom can't speak English, and they do very well on their tests. For some reason, they take the same tests the public school kids do, and they advertise the fact that they have the same NJ core curriculum as the public schools do. The kids don't go to the local public high school. They go to the best Catholic prep schools in the country. I know that their teachers aren't making up to $90,000 a year, either.

[Principled]

We don't hear about anyone else crying about their benfits and pay like teachers do.

I haven't read one teacher whining about pay and benefits, only YOU. So who is the whiner.

Further, it is the unions that whine, not teachers. The fact is (since you allow simple assertions to be fact) that the vast majority of teachers don't do it for the money - they don't need or want a lot of money...otherwise they'd do something different.

Teachers don't get off when the bell rings. That is silly. This shows ignorance of the situation.

Be mad and whine all you want, but dang you sound dumb when you say ignorant stuff. (NOTE TO NMGA: Don't make assertions in areas in which you are ignorant - they make you sound dumb)

[HostileTerritory]

I'm certain there is a useful discussion to be had about the quality of public education, but this gentleman's statistics for "educational productivity" are a lousy starting point.

1. A very large percentage of kids are taking the SATs these days, as opposed to just the top levels that were taking them 20 and 40 years ago. With no change in test-taking ability, the average would still have declined as a result.

2. Educational costs have risen out of proportion to inflation because of the expensive responsibility of caring for special needs children. In the "good old days," they would have been shut up in their bedrooms all day. You can have one teacher with 30 honors English students but no way can you have one with 30 special needs children. Needless to say the rising overall costs has nothing to do with what sort of education the honors English kids are getting.

I'm in no way defending everything that goes on in the name of public schooling but bogus "educational productivity" stats do the opposing side more harm than good.

[Principled]

No teachers have 3 months off in summer. Please recheck.

[Semper911]

So if the school were open 250 days a year, you'd work 20% more days for the same pay willingly?

I certainly would. I teach middle school because I love being there. It is exhausting but so are other professions, and I get a satisfaction of knowing I make a difference. I know it sounds hokey, but it is true for me.

Yes, there are whiney teachers who do little more than show up. Yes, the teacher's unions have their districts over a barrel and only want to do less for more. And yes, much of the parking lot is empty just after the busses pull out.

These things embarrass me about the profession, so I will keep teaching BECAUSE of these things. I may be able to make a difference in the lives of my students, but I will never change the attitudes and behavior of the unions and their members.

I might also add that in my state (Massachusetts) teachers are required to hold a Master's degree within 5 years of getting their first teaching job. It is not cheap. Teachers here start at around 30k and can hope to make maybe 55k by the end of their career. It seems fair to me.

Take away the Summer vacations and those wasted weeks off in Feb. and April, and I'll still be there, making a difference.

These threads pop up every year at about this time, as the school year is winding down and people are reminded that teachers are about to get 10 weeks off. I cannot defend the teacher bashing, because a lot of teachers deserve it.

But not all of us.

[Principled]

Most people work very hard today. Nothing is 9 to 5 anymore. Why should it be 9 to 3, 9 months a year?

Well, teaching is not 9 to 3. Find out before making such a statement. It's not 9 months either. C'mon people, get a clue about what you want to discuss.

[HostileTerritory]

My workday would end at 3:30 too--if I had to be at my desk, ready to give presentations at 7:30 in the morning, every morning.

I couldn't stand the school clock was a kid and I have loads of respect for anyone who would willingly subject themselves to it as an adult. (This goes for anyone else who gets out of bed before 6 on a daily basis for whatever job they hold.)

[ladylib]

What I'm saying is just about eveyone else today works as hard as teachers do if not harder. What's the big deal? That's just the way it is today.

Of course, most people can be fired at will (depending on the state) because they don't have tenure, but that's a different story, right?

[Principled]

There is a difference in the student population between ANY public school and ANY private or semi-private school. This difference is not racial or socioeconomic.

Hell, the biggest difference is that the parents give a crap and value education. Kids who are primed all day everyday for school and success and college are far more likely to succeed in school and beyond than those whose parents couldn't give a rat's butt about school, college, or success - "just get a job at the mill, boy".

[Principled]

What I'm saying is just about eveyone else today works as hard as teachers do if not harder. What's the big deal? That's just the way it is today.

Yes, we all work hard to pay our bills and taxes. Not sure why you mention this...

Of course, most people can be fired at will (depending on the state) because they don't have tenure, but that's a different story, right?

I don't understand this. I take it to be a sarcastic remark that indicates that you think teachers cannot be fired. That would be wrong. "Fired" per se doesn't exist in public education for teachers unless there is a heinous offence. That being said, the resolution is far easier. If one desires a teacher to be "gone" ("fired" in private sector lingo), admin just "non-renews" the contract. No reason need be given. It's quite simple. It is impossible to get hired if you've ever been "non-renewed".

So again, please make yourself aware of what you plan to discuss so emotionally.

[Clara Lou]

Most teachers... get four months vacation, get home everyday by 3:30, have weekends free and have federal holidays off.
What state do you live in? I'd like to know where teachers get 4 months of vacation. [I'll be finished for the year Fri., May 30. I'll be back about August 9th. I obviously teach in the wrong state.] I leave for work every morning at 7:30, and I get home at 4:30. [Let's see-- that's a 9-hour day.] The school board picks the school holidays. Did you have a problem with them opting to close schools on Memorial Day?

What a bunch of bull. Teachers these days are the least educated, creative people on earth.
I have a degree in Foreign Language. I'm among "the least educated"? [My education coursed are a minor.]

They have the cushiest jobs...
You plainly do not know what you are talking about. The other morning I was physically menaced by a 6th-grader who out-weighed me by 75 lbs. He was upset because I told him that he couldn't drink his breakfast soda in the gymnasium. I also have to do duty during my lunch half-hour. I regularly work on Saturdays, particularly when I've been given a new teacher to mentor.

and they under preform even most of their own students.
You, sir/ma'am/it, are a liar.

They get tax rebates for being a teacher, and I have yet to meet one of them who actually raises their own children.
I don't know your state, but in mine there's no rebate for teachers. And, Big Mouth, when my husband decided that he was just having too hard a time raising the children he helped create, I took my 4 children and raised them myself. I started off earning 18,000 dollars. Believe me, we had lots of end-of-the-month beans.

You know a lot less than you think you do. Gasbag.

[ladylib]

I can't disagree with that. All I'm saying that our teachers are paid better than most of the surrounding towns and our test scores are not quite up to par with those towns. It's not like the test scores are in the dumps. They are a few percentage points lower than the surrounding towns.

I'm not blaming it on the teachers, the parents, or the kids. It was just a statement.

What's a semi-private school? Charter?

[Principled]

THank you for doing what you do.

[azcap]

According to Labor Department's most recent study (5 years old), the average editor makes 39K, a HS teachers makes 40K

Here is the link to the survey. It lists averages for hundreds of occupations. http://stats.bls.gov/oes/1998/oesnat98.htm#n20000

 

[JoeSchem]

Um excuse me, but teachers are private citizens too, and I doubt it takes into account the hours they spend at home grading papers, doing lesson plans, not counting putting up with your snot nosed kid who wont ever bring in his home work.

If its such good pay, give it a try.

I worked as a tutor for free for a few years. One of my students had several pages of math homework to do every week. She was very diligent, so we did it together. But she then informed me that the teacher never graded the homework!

I'd love to be working as a teacher right now, but without that college degree and magical certificate, I can't break in. I don't necessarily see drooling idiots in the profession, but I do see a lot of people who don't know what hard work is and don't know what the pay scale out there is like right now.

I just know that whenever the issue comes up about parental choice in schools, the teachers go ballistic. The skepticism which this engenders is inevitable and unavoidable.

[Semper911]

I couldn't stand the school clock

LOL! That is the one thing I wish was different about being a teacher. I have to be there at 7 and start teaching at 7:15. It is just not natural, especially for a night owl-freeper like me!

And the kids are zombie-like until about 8:30.

Most people don't realize it, but the start times are always dictated by the high school sports program. The school day needs to end in time for practice and games. Sad but true.