A man who hunted deer on his own property will spend 15 years in federal prison

AP via Boston Glob ^ | 4/30/03 | staff

[CFW]

PITTSBURGH (AP) A man who hunted deer on his own property will spend 15 years in federal prison because he was a convicted felon, and therefore not allowed to possess a gun.

Jack C. Altsman, 43, of Beaver Falls, received the mandatory sentence Friday from U.S. District Judge Terrence McVerry.

[RonF]

There is a difference between limited organizational rights (like voting) and unalienable natural rights (like posessing arms). The former is limited to people of certain age, citizenship, location, and procedures - and until the Constitution was amended, even limited to sex. The latter is defined as an unalienable natural right, recognized with the explicit phrase "...shall not be infringed" - the only limit is where exercising the right violates someone else's rights.

I don't remember any document defining possession of guns to be an inalienable right. While the 2nd Amendment uses the phrase "shall not be infringed", I don't see how that figures into the distinction you make between two kinds of rights.

OTOH, I do recall life and liberty being defined as inalienable rights (although in the Declaration of Independence, which has great moral standing but no legal standing), and as you can see in my post #33, the Constitution explicitly says that life and liberty can be taken from American citizens if done using "due process of law".

Do you hold, then, that the Government can take your liberty, your property, and your life, but it can't take your guns?

The "felons lose the right to vote too" argument is a falacy[sic].

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you dispute that felons lose the right to vote? Or do you think that the statement's true, but that it doesn't apply as supporting the argument?

[Eagle Eye]

Then you wouldn't support anyone being released on probation or parole, I assume.

Don't.

[templar]

Which side you come down on has a big influence on how you view these issues.

No sensible person would argue that anyone has the Right to keep and bear arms while in prison. Therefore it isn't a question of whether or not a right can be taken away by the government, it is a question of if, when, and how that right is restored. This is a matter of law and is addressed by legislation. State laws will vary on this matter, but the Federal law is the one that ends up overruling all others. There are procedures for restoring your gun rights on the Federal level, and one can always change States if he cannot do so on the State level. Own a gun without following these rules if you are a Felon and you will risk the penalty that this man has received. Even if your Felony shouldn't have been a felony at all, or maybe even illegal at all.

[seamas]

There are about 42 million felons in this country-the vast majority of whom are not dangerous. Many are worthless checks or marihuana convictions. The Armed Career Criminal does not distinguish, except if convicted of the Sherman Anti-Trust laws. I have seen bad guys get this sentence, but also many decent fellows who misspent their youths, a common failing.

[kidd]

I think the problem here is mandatory sentencing.

This man's liberty has been deprived by due process of law (an artifact of his burglary convictions), and is therefore Constitutional.

However, I would argue that the punishment is a violation of the 8th ammendment (cruel and unusual punishment). A warning/reminder would have been appropriate, not 15 years in prison.

[templar]

I would please not guilty just to waste the court's time.

Yeah, I probably would too. And as many appeals as possible as well (can't appeal a guilty plea, but you can a conviction).

[joesnuffy]

Your NRA at work. "Project Exile" Since it is a gun felony, he is likely to do more hard time than real rapists, thugs and thieves. Best regards,

Absolutely...next stop...no guns for combat vets who have been under the care of a VA Psychologist or gotten medication for a diagnosed psychiatric-medical-combat induced condition

Pvt. Lynch wont be allowed to own a firearm if this gets enforced...

Neither will any woman who has been raped...and gone for counseling for nightmares..fear induced anxiety etc will not be allowed to own a handgun for self or family defense..

Even if the rapist is still loose and is a threat..even if the threat is acknowledged by police..

However (from what I understand) illegal aliens with their US drivers licenses will be able to purchase firearms...even in California..

[GhostofWCooper]

Yeah, I hate burglars and thieves...

I still can't get behind the principle of denying gun rights for life to someone who
a) has completed their prison term, and
b) hasn't committed a "gun" crime.
Also, the sentence is waaaaay out of line. He should have been given six months in the workhouse and fined, at the most. He didn't really do anything.

[Hodar]

Actions have consequences. If I robbed a bank in my youth, would you want me managing your retirement now? Probably not. To work your way UP to a felony from a misdeanor is not a trivial thing. If I robbed your home, not once; but twice, would you want me to have equal access to a firearm as you currently enjoy? The gov't primary job is to protect the population. One way is to prevent Felons from obtaining guns, and punish them severely when they are found to have violated the law. Felons are well informed that they have lost the right to bear arms, as well as to vote. It's not a big secret.

[RonF]

Rights are inalienable, read the preamble.

Here's the Preamble. What are you talking about?:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Michael Barnes]

re #64

Probably a "camp" that his family has..Alot of guys around here have "camps" (10-20 acres of land bought real cheap out in nowhere) 50-60 miles away from where they live. I know three guys in the immediate area of me that have "camps".

[CFW]

I think the problem here is mandatory sentencing.

I agree. The judge even said he didn't want to give him that sentence. Unfortunately mandatory sentencing forced him to. I think all circumstances of "the crime" should be considered and the sentence should properly reflect those circumstances.

[George Smiley]

I support the right to bear arms, but only for the lawful citizenry.

Let's take your thought to its logical conclusion:

I support freedom of religion, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support freedom of the press, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right of peaceful assembly, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to to be secure in one's person, house, papers, and effects, and to not be subject to unreasonable searches and seizures, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the prohibition on double jeopardy, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the prohibition on self-incrimination, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to a speedy and public trial, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to confront one's accusers, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to counsel, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the right to trial by jury, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the prohibition of excessive bail, but only for the lawful citizenry.
I support the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment, but only for the lawful citizenry.

You just don't get it.

You allow the government to turn one inalienable right into a privilege and the rest will soon follow.

[FourPeas]

And, then there's the story of Mark Fricke found here:

Mark Fricke, 46, of Vicksburg, was sentenced by Lamb to two years of probation after being convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm in Kalamazoo in January 2002.

Obviously, we don't have the whole story here, but it's hard to believe that Mr. Fricke's story is any less mundane.

[Knightsofswing]

What ever happened to private property! I guess that the DNR [thugs] do not have to observe the rights of property owners! Here in Michigan they DON'T. The DNR thugs can go anywhere at anytime they want. In the name of enviromental proection [what a farce!!] I have no trespassing signs all over my property, and it includes ALL GOVERMENT EMPLOYEES. If I catch any of them on my property, I have them arrested for trespassing & take them to court and charge $5,000.00 per charge per day. If they don't pay I place them into contempt of court & let the courts turn aginst them. It does work this way.

[Hodar]

Pvt. Lynch wont be allowed to own a firearm if this gets enforced...

Please learn what you are talking about before you go spouting nonsense. This is the LAW, it is entitled Sec. 922. - Unlawful acts and maybe found here

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

(d)
It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
(1)
is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2)
is a fugitive from justice;
(3)
is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4)
has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

[jjm2111]

The other half is that it's so stupidly easy to become a felon for truly petty, even accidental, "crimes".

So true.

[jjm2111]

That he did. Either this guy paid his debt to society or he did not. Gov't should take their pick.

[Anamensis]

Wait till they make "failure to hire a transvestite" into a felony.

[yarddog]

A very old federal agent once told me that practically everybody has committed a felony sometime in their life. He also said just about everyone has done something they could be fired for.

This was given as an explanation as to why it is a good idea to either have powerful friends or to not make enemies.

He also once told me that just because we must give due process in this country does not mean that we can't totally destroy a person while all the time giving him due process because it is so easy to use the system.

I agree with those who think a person should have all his rights restored after serving his sentence. There is something wrong with the idea that your life is ruined forever for doing something wrong. If it is that bad you should either be executed or stay in prison.