Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Turk2; DED; a_Turk; Mortimer Snavely; eleni121
Perhaps we should add in this summary for a little balance, one rather randomly picked from hundreds readily available from neutral sources. I'd be interested to hear you try to explain away the findings of the Turkish war crimes tribunal:
Only one Turkish government, that of Damad Ferit Pasha, has ever recognized the Armenian genocide. In fact, that Turkish government held war crimes trials and condemned to death the major leaders responsible.

The Turkish court concluded that the leaders of the Young Turk government were guilty of murder. "This fact has been proven and verified." It maintained that the genocidal scheme was carried out with as much secrecy as possible. That a public facade was maintained of "relocating" the Armenians. That they carried out the killing by a secret network. That the decision to eradicate the Armenians was not a hasty decision, but "the result of extensive and profound deliberations."

Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha, Mehmed Talât Bey, and a host of others were convicted by the Turkish court and condemned to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians."
And here is the summary in its entirety. Note at the ending the condemnation of the Armenian genocide from not merely Armenian sources but also official recognition of the Turkish genocide by the Turkish court, the European Parliament, the United States (under two administrations), the Russian Duma, and by Israel.



FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

KNIGHTS OF VARTAN ARMENIAN RESEARCH CENTER

The University of Michigan-Dearborn

Dearborn, MI 48128



The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us.

Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.

The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish]) which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.

The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the Committee of Union and Progress, which created special "butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals released from prison.

Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal, governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not complying with the extermination campaign. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed.

The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic fashion, which proves that it was directed by the Young Turk government.

First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed.

Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed.

Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun.

On the march, often they would be denied food and water, and many were brutalized and killed by their "guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them out at sea.

The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa); in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana (which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir (Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas (Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (þebin Karahisar), and Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the east were in the war zone.

The Armenian Genocide was condemned at the time by representatives of the British, French, Russian, German, and Austrian governments—namely all the major Powers. The first three were foes of the Ottoman Empire, the latter two, allies of the Ottoman Empire. The United States, neutral towards the Ottoman Empire, also condemned the Armenian Genocide and was the chief spokesman in behalf of the Armenians.

The American people, via local Protestant missionaries, did the most to save the wretched remnants of the death marches, the orphaned children.

Despite Turkish denial, there is no doubt about the Armenian Genocide. For example, German ambassador Count von Wolff-Metternich, Turkey's ally in World War I, wrote his government in 1916 saying: "The Committee [of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of the last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman] government must bow to its demands."

German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum [Erzurum] who was Adolf Hitler's chief political advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians."

Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915:

"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion."

Morgenthau's successor as Ambassador to Turkey, Abram Elkus, cabled the U.S. State Department in 1916 that the Young Turks were continuing an ". . . unchecked policy of extermination through starvation, exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history."

Only one Turkish government, that of Damad Ferit Pasha, has ever recognized the Armenian genocide. In fact, that Turkish government held war crimes trials and condemned to death the major leaders responsible.

The Turkish court concluded that the leaders of the Young Turk government were guilty of murder. "This fact has been proven and verified." It maintained that the genocidal scheme was carried out with as much secrecy as possible. That a public facade was maintained of "relocating" the Armenians. That they carried out the killing by a secret network. That the decision to eradicate the Armenians was not a hasty decision, but "the result of extensive and profound deliberations."

Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha, Mehmed Talât Bey, and a host of others were convicted by the Turkish court and condemned to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians."

The Permanent People's Tribunal recognized the Armenian Genocide on April 16, 1984.

The European Parliament voted to recognize the Armenian Genocide on June 18, 1987.

President Bush issued a news release in 1990 calling on all Americans to join with Armenians on April 24 in commemorating "the more than a million Armenian people who were victims."

President Clinton issued a news release on April 24, 1994, to commemorate the "tragedy" that befell the Armenians in 1915.

The Russian Duma (the lower house of the bicameral Russian legislature) voted on April 20, 1994, to recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Israel officially condemned the Armenian Genocide as Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Yossi Beilin proclaimed on the floor of the Knesset (the Israeli legislature), on April 27, 1994, in answer to the claims of the Turkish Ambassador, that "It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember."

The Armenian genocide is similar to the Jewish holocaust in many respects. Both people adhere to an ancient religion. Both were religious minorities of their respective states. Both have a history of persecution. Both have new democracies. Both are surrounded by enemies. Both are talented and creative minorities who have been persecuted out of envy and obscurantism.

Issues:

  • The Republic of Turkey must cease to be the only major country in the world to deny the Armenian Genocide.

  • The Republic of Turkey must show good will by allowing American aid to present-day Armenia to pass through unhindered.

  • The Republic of Turkey must cease to train Azerbaijani soldiers in Turkey for the purpose of attacking Armenia.

April 3, 1996




This is, of course, merely one of thousands of such summaries and historical accounts by neutral parties from around the world.

I'm not sure that FR is a proper forum for holocaust deniers of any stripe. Many here have not made a great issue of your denials but it simply will not do for FR to become a place for holocaust deniers to post exculpatory articles or propaganda. It isn't allowed for denials of the Jewish holocaust and it should not be allowed for the Serbian holocaust or the Armenian holocaust, all twentieth century events about which a great deal is known.
72 posted on 04/26/2003 11:24:31 AM PDT by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies ]


To: George W. Bush; All
The problem is we have not spoken because we thought that such an injustice on our nation could not be allowed by the 'civilized' West. When Armenians were throwing around allegations and Allied forces spies were spreading disinformation and wartime propaganda to justify their imperialistic plots on the Ottoman Empire in the view of their public, we did not speak out. Even when we did try to enlighten the world with the truth, our voices were just not heard. All sources that point to the existence of a systematic genocide being applied upon the Armenians wuth which we have spent hundreds of years in peace, are either Armenian revolutionary comittees (formed in Russia with National Socialist ideological background), priests of the Partriarchy which had been an accomplice of these terrorist organizations and foreign missionaries or diplomats which were obviously controlled by Allied powers.

All neutral accounts of the events of that period in eastern anatolia point out that there was no such crime commited, that the number of deaths is grossly exaggerated (the number of dead being estimated at numbers above the total Armenian population of the region), that the hundreds of thousands of Turks killed in the region are completely neglected inspite of evidence such as mass graves uncovered all around Eastern Anatolia and documents in the Ottoman archives, the massive Armenian revolts in which tens of thousands of Turks were slaughtered which severely hampered the Ottoman war effort against Russia and the activities of Armenian revolutionary committees are completely overlooked as though they never existed inspite of countless documents proving otherwise.

It is obvious from the source you have posted that you have actually not read any of my posts and, as any concientious human being would be, are disturbed by attempts at holocaust deniel in any form. However, as a civilized member of the human race, you must also be open to information from all sides of a historical event before you come to a conclusion and block out any other possible interpretation of that event. Just because someone says that there was a holocaust, does not mean that it had to be accepted to be true and never questioned. It is true that the people of Anatolia have suffered greatly during those days, but to neglect the suffering of the Turks in the region is disrespect to the memory of the countless innocent Turks that were killed by pawns of Russian, French and British imperialism as well as the countless innocent Armenians that died during the forced deportation.

I am astounded by your choise of a neutral source for this topic: KNIGHTS OF VARTAN ARMENIAN RESEARCH CENTER. Its name is enough to discredit it but I will nontheless try to refute some of the information pointed out in the propaganda you have posted.

Only one Turkish government, that of Damad Ferit Pasha, has ever recognized the Armenian genocide. In fact, that Turkish government held war crimes trials and condemned to death the major leaders responsible.

--- The government of Damat Ferit Pasha was under full control of the invading Allied powers. This is the same goevernment that provoked religous groups to suppress the resistence in Anatolia against the invasion and put a death warrant on Mustafa KEmal's head. The allied powers themselves held trials on the island of Malta after 1918 and were unable to indict one single Ottoman official with any crimes against humanity. The Allied prosecutors were unable to find any evidence against the Ottoman officials eventhough they had complete control over the Ottoman government, had invaded its capital and most of its lands and had unlimited access to all its documents.

Besides, the so-called documents implicationg Talat Pasa of a genocidal plot were completely forged and here's proof. KNIGHTS OF VARTAN ARMENIAN RESEARCH CENTER

Is this the place you have accepted as a 'neutral' source on these matters? Here is some info on this neutral source : Armenian Research Center

The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us.

Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.

---APRIL 24, 1915

The Ottoman government, against numerous rebellions that began after 1890 and promptly following Armenian massacres which resulted in the murder of tens of thousands of Turks, contented with informing most important persons of Armenian congregation and Armenian deputies that "Government will take the necessary precautions if Armenians continue to stab in the back and assassinate the Turks". However, it became a necessity to secure behind the borders because the army was in war at various fronts, the events did not stop but increased and assaults towards defenseless Turkish women and children increased.

With this aim, on April 24, 1915 the Armenian Committees were closed and 2345 of their directors were arrested due to the crime of carrying out activities against the government. April 24, which is commemorated annually as the "Anniversary of Armenian Massacre" by the Armenians abroad is this date when the 2345 revolutionary committee members were arrested and it has no relation with deportation.

However, the Armenian revolutionary committee members who propagandize even the unfounded events by exaggeration, promptly made a move to propagandize these mentioned arrests. As a matter of fact, Ecmiyazin Catholicos Kevork sent the telegraph below to the President of USA:

"Dear President, according to the last news we got from Turkish Armenia, the massacre began there and an organized terror endangered the presence of the Armenian people. At this critical moment, I am addressing to the noble feelings of your Excellency and great American Nation and in the name of humanity and Christianity belief requesting you to promptly interfere by means of your great Republic's diplomatic representatives and protect my people in Turkey who are left to violence of the Turkish fanaticism.

Kevork, Archbishop and Catholicos of all Armenians."

Pursuant to the telegraph of Archbishop Kevork, Russia's Washington Ambassador got in contact with USA and thus, April 24, which is the day when Armenian committee members dealing with illegal works were arrested was propagandized to world's public opinion as "the day on which Turks massacred Armenians".

REFERENCE: Gürün, Kamuran, Ermeni Dosyasi, TTK Basimevi, Ankara, 1983, s.210-211

German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum [Erzurum] who was Adolf Hitler's chief political advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians." The statement above is false as said here: Hitler and the Armenian Question

Hitler is often quoted as having referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, just a week prior to his attack on Poland. I have added to the end of this booklet the original texts of the two Hitler speeches, delivered on August 22, 1939 (Annex 3). They are photocopies of the pages of the official texts, published in the certainly reliable Nuremberg documents. (7) Curiously enough, there is no reference in them to the Armenians. One may rightly assume that Hitler spoke to his generals on that day in German, which is his and their native tongue. The Nuremberg documents are the most authoritative, perhaps the only authentic sources. I am aware of a few English translations, (8) some of which carry an additional sentence that does not occur in the authorized German texts. One wonders whether who might have added it and for what purpose! In terms of "methodology", the use of a supposedly Hitler statement on the Armenians brings to mind several Nazi "craft", such as the Reichstag fire, exploited for a certain political end.

Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915:

"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion."

The Story Behind Robert Morgenthau's Story

Morgenthau's successor as Ambassador to Turkey, Abram Elkus, cabled the U.S. State Department in 1916 that the Young Turks were continuing an ". . . unchecked policy of extermination through starvation, exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history."

What a bigot:

25 Lectures on Modern Balkan History

Ottoman History

Does the fact that a number of nations that have incited the unrest in Anatolia and provoked the Armenians into revolt have accepted this imaginary genocide and condemened Turkey, which is the real victim in these events, to clear their conciences?

Israel and the US presidency have never accepted the events of WWI as a genocide. Nobody is denying that attrocities have been commited , but by both sides, anyway.

The Armenian genocide is similar to the Jewish holocaust in many respects. Both people adhere to an ancient religion. Both were religious minorities of their respective states. Both have a history of persecution. Both have new democracies. Both are surrounded by enemies. Both are talented and creative minorities who have been persecuted out of envy and obscurantism. To compare the Jewish holocaust with what happened in Anatolia during WWI is an insult to the millions who have suffered at the hands of Hitler and his evil nazi empire. There are ship loads of documents and statements by German officials as well as concentration camps and well kept records of extermination to prove the Jewish holocaust. To say that Armenians, the Millet-i Sadika (Loyal Nation), were a persecuted minority in the Ottoman Empire is a display of ill intention or at best complete ignorance of historical facts. I am disgusted by the attempt of these Armenian terrorist organizations to exploit the feelings of Jews which they greatly despise (Orthodox Christians are generally brought up as enti-semitists)`and have actively taken part in the extermination of during WWII in complicity with the nazis.

If you are truly a civilized rational human being, I request that you read some of the following sources as well, to broaden your understanding of the Armenian-Turkish conflict.

 

73 posted on 04/26/2003 2:31:25 PM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies ]

To: George W. Bush
The least polemic summary of this I've read is here:

Professor Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville on the results of his research:

There has been quite a bit of misinformation that has been told about Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Specifically about the number of Armenians who lived in the Ottoman Empire and what happened to the Armenians. On this map here, we have an area that is historically called Armenia - whether or not there were very many Armenians living there or whether Armenians ruled it at any one time. In this area, which stretches from the Russian border all the way down to the Mediterranean, there were - at the time of the end of the Ottoman Empire around the year 1912 or 1915 - six provinces, called vilayets. In these provinces, there were many Armenians, but in none of these provinces was more than a third of the population Armenian, and in most cases it was quite a bit less than a third.

In fact, if at the beginning of the First World War you took the entire Armenian population of the world and you put it all in this area that has been called Armenia, the Muslim population would still have outnumbered the Armenians. Of course they were not there, and that meant that the Muslims Outnumbered the Armenians by approximately 6:1.

Now at the beginning of the First World War, the Ottomans decided that they Would move a number of Armenians who they believed to be a threat from the areas in which they lived to other areas in the South.

Many more Armenians than were ever moved in any forced migration, however, fled with the Russian armies to the north, and in the World War you have a period of tremendous death. There was cholera, typhus ... in fact, there were three years In which no crops were on the ground. And so the people who lived in the area simply starved to death -if they did not die of disease and if they did not die of outright murder. By outright murder, I mean the murder that came when the Russian army invaded this territory. They came right down to the city of Van, which was being held by the Armenian revolutionaries against their own government. When the Russian armies came in, many groups of Russians and large numbers of Armenian irregulars massacred large numbers of Muslims.

There was back and forth fighting that went on for the next three years and quite a bit of killing of Armenians by Muslims and Muslims by Armenians.

When each of the armies retreated, their own people, the people who identified with them and were tied to them, left with them. So when the Russians retreated, the Armenians retreated with them. When the Muslim, Ottoman armies retreated, the Muslims - Turks especially - left with them.

Through the whole of Anatolia, in the whole region which extends from the Aegean and the Mediterranean all the way up to the Black Sea and the Caucasus, you had approximately 600.000 dead Armenians. In the same region, you had 2.5 million dead Muslims, most of them Turks.

Even in just this area (Armenia), you had more than a million dead Muslims - Turks - well some were other peoples, but the majority were Turks, which meant that in this area called Armenia there were hundreds of thousands more dead Muslims than there were Armenians.

Now, this area has been portrayed as an area in which Armenians were slaughtered. To a certain extent that is true, but to be historically accurate, we also have to call it an area where Muslims were slaughtered - in fact many more Muslims. And we have to view this time period around World War 1, before and a little bit after World War 1, as a period of great inhumanity - of massacres, of deaths that touched all people - not simply Armenians, not simply Turks. Unless it is viewed as a human problem instead of a sectarian problem - instead of a problem of just the Armenians - we will never understand what really went on at the time."

Justin McCarthy's Research

No one anywhere denies a lot of people died horribly. A trail of tears? Certainly. A bureaucratically administered policy of extermination of a targeted ethnic group? I think not. That type of historical ledgerdemain is where history ends and plain old propaganda begins.

77 posted on 04/26/2003 4:39:10 PM PDT by Mortimer Snavely (More Power to the Troops! More Bang for the Buck!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies ]

To: George W. Bush; Turk2; DED; a_Turk; Mortimer Snavely; eleni121; Mihalis
Turks like to cite anti semitic socialists like Toynbee and other Turkish govt. apparatchiks to back up their ridiculous claims that no genocide occured. In fact Muslim Turk genocides against Christians have occured over and over again.

Turkish genocides

An excerpt from the above Netanyahu link:

Arnold Toynbee, a historian highly placed in the British academic-diplomatic establishment (Studies Director at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, etc.), described Jews and other minorities as "fossils of ancient faiths" that should have vanished long ago.

85 posted on 04/26/2003 5:26:19 PM PDT by eleni121
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson