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Is Iraq inspired by strategy that caused the greatest defeat in British military history?
1914-1918.net ^ | 2003 | Chris Baker

Posted on 03/27/2003 8:13:56 PM PST by Destro

Is Iraq's strategy inspired by that which caused the greatest defeat in British military history?

Who's Who: Khalil Pasha

Khalil Pasha (1864-1923) was placed at the head of the Turkish Sixth Army during World War One, based in Mesopotamia.

Simultaneously military governor of Baghdad (and all territory south-west of Aleppo), Khalil's policy during the extended Anglo-Indian advance of 1915 appeared simple: he consistently permitted his field commanders to retreat under fire.

Progress was slow however, if sure, on account of heavy rain and an overriding concern to minimise casualties. Additional difficulties were faced by the retreating Turks in fighting off repeated attacks by local Marsh Arabs (the Shi'ites of the South), who attacked both sides at every opportunity.

This approach was reversed at the Battle of Ctesiphon (after an initial withdrawal by the Turks) with a counter-attack launched at the retreating British force under Sir Charles Townshend.

After successfully conducting the conclusion of the siege of Kut, when Townshend finally surrendered unconditionally on 30 April 1916, Khalil was inclined to support a more aggressive policy, proposing a Turkish sweep into Persia.

Considered an honoured guest by his Turkish captors Sir Charles Townshend was treated with lavish hospitality; meanwhile his 10,000 troops were largely subjected to barbaric treatment (including homosexual rape). A remarkable two-thirds of this group died while being marched into captivity.

Mesopotamia

A long, drawn-out campaign in appalling conditions that was initially about protecting British oil interests, but later gave rise to visions of glittering prizes in the capture of Baghdad.

Why here?

Mesopotamia was part of the Turkish Ottoman empire. Germany had for many years before the war assiduously developed Turkey as an ally, which it saw as an important part of the Drang nach Osten (The Thrust towards the East: Germany wanted new lands, new markets, lebensraum). The Turkish army was led by German 'advisors', as was much of its trade and commerce.

Britain relied heavily on Gulf oil to keep its Navy at sea. It determined very quickly on the outbreak of the war with Germany to protect its interests by occupying the oilfields and pipeline near Basra. Later, after an early string of cheap successes, British eyes fell on Baghdad. Victory over the Turks was believed by some to be a less costly way towards defeat of Germany than the painful battering at the Western Front. They began a series of attempts to move north along the rivers to the ancient city. Pushed by Germany - which also tried to encourage a Jihad (Muslim Holy War) against the British forces - Turkey was to strongly resist the British incursion.

What happened?

It was the Indian Army, which included a number of British units (initially of the Regular Army but soon joined by Territorials), that supplied the 'British' fighting forces ordered to Mesopotamia. This army had been under-invested for decades, and it showed in the quality of equipment and in training. Guns, shells, small arms and ammunition - of which there was never enough - were often literally museum pieces or considered not good enough for the Western Front and other areas. The Army command also failed to realise the difficulties of supplying an army that moved further upstream from the Gulf. There were never enough shallow-draught boats, nor enough mules or camels, to adequately supply the fighting forces that were to be up to 500 miles away from port.

Like Gallipoli, conditions in Mesopotamia defy description. Extremes of temperature (120 degrees F was common); arid desert and regular flooding; flies, mosquitoes and other vermin: all led to appalling levels of sickness and death through disease. Under these incredible conditions, units fell short of officers and men, and all too often the reinforcements were half-trained and ill-equipped. Medical arrangements were quite shocking, with wounded men spending up to two weeks on boats before reaching any kind of hospital.

The early successes in the river delta were misleading; more and more troops were sent to the Mesopotamia theatre, for operations towards Baghdad which stretched the supply lines to the limit. There was a serious difference of opinion between London, India and the Commander of the force, regarding the role of the army. The fomer saw it as defensive; the latter two as offensive with a view to capturing Baghad. The campaign was muddled: the attitudes and complacency disastrous. The advance plodded on, until a resounding defeat in November 1915 in front of Ctesiphon led to headlong retreat to Kut-al-Amara. The army in Kut became surrounded and besieged; eventually 9,000 (3,000 British and 6,000 Indian troops) surrendered five months later - the greatest defeat and loss in British military history up to that point.

Following the fall of Kut, the British ordered Major-General Stanley Maude to take command of the British army in Mesopotamia. He introduced new methods, which culminated in a decisive defeat of the Turks in February 1917, and the capture of Baghdad in March 1917. On this day, the Berlin-Baghdad railway was captured, and German schemes for Turkey were finished.

British forces (and Russians, advancing from the north and east) closed in on the Turks throughout the autumn of 1917, and into the Spring of 1918. Despite making great advances, however, and the additional pressure coming from the north-west, where British forces in Palestine defeated the Turks, no decisive victory was gained.

An armistice was signed by the Turks in Mesopotamia on 1st November 1918.

Landscape for battle

Mesopotamia is an ancient land, through which run the great Rivers Tigris and Euphrates. At the southern end, this is a complex river delta. The two rivers meet at Qurna, 40 miles north of Basra, where they come together to form the Shatt-al-Arab, which flows into the Persian Gulf. The land is for the most part desert, and is very flat. The rivers flood the plains to a great extent, when the winter snows in the northern mountains thaw. The small towns and villages that existed along the river banks in 1914 were generally constructed several feet above water level. There is virtually no water in this land, except that from the rivers. There were no roads, so all transport had to be by boat along the rivers. The major centre of population was Baghdad, almost 570 miles upstream from the Gulf.

For centuries before the Great War, this land had been part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Lying along its eastern border was Persia, generally friendly to the British. The Arab Sheiks of Kuwait and Muhammerah also supported Britain; the Arab tribes of coastal Mesopotamia often changed sides.

Today the land where the British forces were active in 1914-1918 lies in Iraq.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Free Republic; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: iraq; iraqhistory
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To: Kevin Curry
No comparison to the results for sure but what of the set up? I am not mistaking the victorious coalition end result-
21 posted on 03/27/2003 8:28:41 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Kinda reminds me of that old SNL skit, "What if Napoleon had a fully loaded B-52 at Waterloo?" [it may have been Wellington instead of Napoleon, I don't remember]. Anyway, the point is that things are slightly(!) different now. Our army can't be cut off these days. The ONLY chance Saddam has is if he managed to be successful in a massive chemical weapon attack on our 3rd ID.
22 posted on 03/27/2003 8:28:45 PM PST by mikegi
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To: expatpat
>>>>I think that Stalingrad is perhaps more likely as a model for Sadam's strategy<<<<

More likely Moscow campaign in Napoleonic wars and WWII. Like Khutuzov and Stalin, Saddam let American troops reach the outskirts of Baghdad, now he can sit and wait for harsh Russian winter to do the rest :-)

23 posted on 03/27/2003 8:30:54 PM PST by DTA
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To: Destro
Interesting. You know, earlier this evening I was thinking about the German 6th Army in the battle of Stalingrad and how the Russians lured the Germans in.

It would be nice to have some historical strategy discussions going on here. Because it seems like the best strategies in history are overlooked, or ignored by our modern day overconfident politician-generals.

In WWII the greatest minds challenged one another (i.e Rommel-Montgomery)
Now it seems like our strategies are only half planned.

On hearing the news of sending 100,000 more troops (and saying we meant to do it all along) I can only think of the attitude of the Japanese commander in Guadalcanal that was so overconfident that he kept back more than half of his force - he was wiped out.

If we are going to war we need to go in to win. Period.







24 posted on 03/27/2003 8:31:44 PM PST by Ymani Cricket
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To: ggekko
It is not analogous situation. The present day Iraqi's have no realistic way to interdict our supply lines.

The Iraqi's are trying: Initially, Iraqi fighters remained in the cities and only struck American units that dared enter. Now, they are venturing out, striking at transportation and supply lines. The division's rapid advance also meant it outran its supply lines. The vulnerability of the division's supply lines has led to a reassessment of the entire war plan among the military brass and a distinct unease among rank-and-file soldiers. "You have no idea how long some of us logisticians have been warning that this could be a repeat of "A Bridge Too Far," said a supplies officer. Soldiers have been told not to expect a resupply of combat rations or water for at least a couple of days. Vital ammunition was being flown from Kuwait to the front line units because supply columns are unable to get through."If the howitzers don't have ammo and the tanks don't have fuel, we're sitting ducks when we arrive outside Baghdad," said Podmore.The entire division advanced up two single-lane highways that were never meant to support this volume of activity, let alone military traffic.

25 posted on 03/27/2003 8:32:03 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Kevin Curry
I hope you're right. OTOH, Hitler was confident he could avoid Napoleon's mistakes in Russia.
26 posted on 03/27/2003 8:33:05 PM PST by aristeides
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To: Destro
The Iraq strategy was the same as the Russian strategy of 1812. Fall back and wear down the attackers by attrition and logistics dificulties and using terrain and weather on their side.

It's Saddam's fantasy. It wont happen.

1. The HUGE error here is the assumption that we would out run our logistics. We wont. we were able to operate in a theatre - Afghanistan - last year with logistics that were worse. Technology is massively different today than in 1914 or 1812. Enough trucks and gas and any army can be supplied.

2. Most of our firepower is in the air. We go to Baghdad from carriers. So on both logistics and attrition, we are winning, not losing. The kill ratio is massive both from the air and from the ground.


27 posted on 03/27/2003 8:33:36 PM PST by WOSG (Liberate Iraq! Lets Roll! now!-)
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To: LenS
Maybe the sodomites would be pacified by a few thousand rubber dolls with orifices all over. Question is whether to provide male or female versions...
28 posted on 03/27/2003 8:34:14 PM PST by gettingreal
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To: John H K
Shhh, dont tell Saddam yet.
29 posted on 03/27/2003 8:34:25 PM PST by WOSG (Liberate Iraq! Lets Roll! now!-)
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To: Destro
It's not really relevant.
30 posted on 03/27/2003 8:34:35 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: John H K
Stalingrad was never surrounded by the Germans. It's a horrible analogy for about a billion reasons

Not the least of which is that Saddam forgot to rename Bagdad--Saddamodad
31 posted on 03/27/2003 8:35:30 PM PST by uncbob ( building tomorrow)
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To: Destro
The army in Kut became surrounded and besieged; eventually 9,000 (3,000 British and 6,000 Indian troops) surrendered five months later - the greatest defeat and loss in British military history up to that point.

"Up to that point" being the operative words. The fall of Singapore in 1942 was a much greater defeat.

I suspect the Iraqi leaders would like to have decisive fighting take place in Kut. It no doubt has a mythic significance to them, in view of its history.

May not matter to U.S. troops. But it may have an effect on the morale of Iraqi troops.

32 posted on 03/27/2003 8:35:40 PM PST by aristeides
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To: John H K
Stalingrad was never surrounded by the Germans. It's a horrible analogy for about a billion reasons.

Not the least of which is that at Stalingrad the Russians were able to draw the Germans into the city, while massing large tank and combined arms armies on their flanks. Saddam has no lurking tank armies to come to his rescue.

33 posted on 03/27/2003 8:36:38 PM PST by pawdoggie
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To: Destro
Landscape for battle

Mesopotamia is an ancient land, through which run the great Rivers Tigris and Euphrates.

Ah yes an ancient land unlike any other on earth....Could be that Iraq and its great leader Sadaam are trying this strategy, however I am sure the Brits for sure and probably the Americans are well aware of this piece of history...while not ancient it is a battle several wars ago...things have change, weapons supply and city population...my only fear is WMD beyond chemical...such as biological or nuclear...could a suitcase nuke or smallpox from Russia have ended up in Sadaam's bag of tricks? Other than those concerns, I feel confident of our commanders plans...I also feel that if WMD are used and significant casualties are taken by the coalition, that Baghdag could morally be nuked back to the stone age...

34 posted on 03/27/2003 8:36:47 PM PST by rolling_stone
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To: Destro
ever play chess with somebody that know all kinds of historic strategies? you think you're pretty smart for a while, power looks centered on the board, you're getting ready for a move after several checks..."checkmate" comes in the experienced voice...

let them set up, go ahead...
35 posted on 03/27/2003 8:37:43 PM PST by gettingreal
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To: mikegi
The ONLY chance Saddam has is if he managed to be successful in a massive chemical weapon attack on our 3rd ID.

Actually I don't think that is much of a chance (for success). For if Saddam did that, I am convinced that we would drop a tactical nuke over his head. World opinion be damned.

36 posted on 03/27/2003 8:37:48 PM PST by SamAdams76 (California wine beats French wine in blind taste tests. Boycott French wine.)
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To: ambrose; LenS
This post is no way saying we will lose this war which I support.

I posted this because I saw similarities to how Iraq is positioning her forces to the Mesopotamia campaign of WW1. Just because the Iraqi's are trying it (MAYBE) a second time does not mean they will win-the Turks lost the second time around when the British regrouped.

Try supporting the jihad in Kosovo on another thread.

37 posted on 03/27/2003 8:37:48 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
"The Iraqi's do seem to be drawing us in toward the "red zone" around Baghdad."

Drawing? They haven't had a choice.

38 posted on 03/27/2003 8:38:04 PM PST by blam
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To: Destro
We can see what's being set up--in real time. We have an astonishing array of sensors from JSTARS, to Predators, to satellite imagery watching our way 24/7. We peek through clouds, through dirt--it's all open to us. Nothing of significant size or of discrenable temperature differential moves on the ground that we don't see.

To supplement the sensors coalition forces have special forces and commando units on the ground, deep behind enemy lines. They have their own sensors and communication devices to relay news of developments that we may have overlooked. They have been in Iraq long enough to recruit at least some Iraqis to help them spy on Saddam's henchmen.

39 posted on 03/27/2003 8:38:35 PM PST by Kevin Curry
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To: rolling_stone
yep...a hole surrounded by glass
40 posted on 03/27/2003 8:39:03 PM PST by gettingreal
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