Flight 800: Breakthrough!

WorldNetDaily ^ | March 13, 2003 | Jack Cashill

[FBD]

"That said, mathematics is not my bailiwick. I haven't touched a math problem since freshman year calculus in 1984. "

Jolly good fer you. You still want to call people; "rubes, rednecks, geeks, freaks," etc.?

BTW,...if Mud is a "RUBE", then you are an arrogant ass. People "like you" drag the Republican party down more than any farmboy that like to hunt, fish, drive an SUV, or eat meat-n-potatoes. And it's that same farm boy that right now, has his butt on the front lines, ready to go into battle in Iraq.

Drop the condescension friend.
It's a liberal trait, for sure.
FRegards

[ACross]

I have earned the right to be arrogant. Because I'm smart and affluent.

[Mudboy Slim]

"I haven't touched a math problem since freshman year calculus in 1984."

Yer a young'un, ACross...I took First-Year Calculus as a junior in High School in 1980!!

Best not ASSUME yer the only one with the capacity to think...it's an unattractive trait, IMHO...MUD

[Mudboy Slim]

Whatever...MUD

[sultan88]

"And I'm a redneck... guess I should take it as a compliment, coming from ACross."

And she called me, ME a lunatic!!

[Swordmaker]

I'm simply not going to be part of this scam thread anymore

Ah, I see, since you cannot refute anything rationally, you run and hide. Goodbye.

[Swordmaker]

Who debunked what?

I debunked you.

If you cannot work a simple triangulation problems from a typical observations point on Long Island and the typical constructed building elevated horizon on Long Island, why in the world would you expect anyone accept anything you post here re: TWA 800.

I did work out the horizon line problems... it is you who claimed a jet aircraft flying at 15,000 feet 10-15 miles away would be below the horizon. I merely hoist you on your own petard by showing that the horizon for a person standing with his eyes at 30 feet will see a horizon 7 miles away... and that at 14 miles, only objects below 30 feet will be below the horizon... quite a difference than 15,000, wouldn't you say? No, I know you wouldn't... because you would have to admit you are wrong. The laws of physics can be telling when applied to lies.

[MindBender26]

But you are forgetting that there are virtually no places on Long Island where one sees the horizon without buildings in the way. What is the apparent horizon differential at 15 miles for a person standing in the front yard of a home, or across a parking lot, when there is a building in their way which eminates from ground level and passes through the true horizon and then the true horizintal axis?

Do you even understand the question?

More importantly, why are you still trying to flack some scam book that only seeks to put money in the hands of the scammers, not the victims. FReepers deserve an answer from you about that.

[MindBender26]

Ah, I see, since you cannot refute anything rationally, you run and hide.

Hiding from paranoid scammers is a very good idea!

[acehai]

Bottom line, I'm out this discussion. Sell each other the book!

Don't have to...The book is doing quite well on it's own.

Flight 800 book sales flying high 'First Strike' ranked at 26 on Amazon best-seller list

[acehai]

Missile attack would have been very short diration, well compacted intense white light, not orange-yellow light, followed by small, constantant intensity well formed white light, finally resulting in a large orange/yellow keresene explosion.

I'm glad you made this statement. Take a look at Major Fritz Meyer (arguably one of the most credible witnesses, looking directly at the event from his Pavehawk H-60 helicopter over the numbers on the Runway 24 approach to Gabreski field, Long Island)

I saw it in broad daylight and one does not see shooting stars in broad daylight. There was a break - where it stopped - and then for an instant I saw nothing - and then suddenly right there I saw an explosion - high velocity explosion - military ordnance! - looked like flak in the sky - and I've seen a lot of flak - ours and theirs. It was military ordnance! A second and a half to two seconds later - farther to the left but down - I saw a flash once again - high velocity explosion - brilliant white light - like the old fashioned flashbulbs that we used to get one picture out of it and then it was gone - brilliant white light. A second and a half to two seconds after that - farther to the left but even lower - I saw, but I'm not certain, either one or two nearly concentric detonations - da da (sic) - and from those detonations emanated this hugh, slowly forming, low velocity explosion fireball.

Now why don't you cite a witness describing your fantacy.

[acehai]

...from firtually uninhabited Great Barrier Beach, often incorrectly called Fire Island.

It's amazing how small inconsistencies conspire to trip up a supposed authority on a subject. The legal axiom "False in one, false in all" could very well apply here.

This poster wants us to believe he is knowledgable on all aspects of the TWA 800 affair, but makes a statement that can be challenged successfully by simply looking at a Long Island roadmap: Which I happen to have in my formerly nicotine-stained fingers (apologies to Rush.)

Careful perusal reveals NO mention of "Great Barrier Beach" anywhere near the Moriches, Westhampten, Shennecock area.

But in two different places parallelling the graphic of the island chain, the label FIRE ISLAND NATIONAL SEASHORE is prominently and correctly displayed.

[MindBender26]

Actually, your post illustrates the foolishness of those who think their reading one map can replace 20 years of personal experiencing navigating boats on the Great South Bay, and the foolishness of so many amateur (non) pilots.

Look at a USGS nautical chart, not some stupid roadmap you got at the local gas station.

Now, First of all, look on that nautical chart at the two elongated shaped islands south of Bay Shore Sayville area, east of the "Quick Flash Charlie" bouy east of Kismet. See the ones named West Fire Island and East Fire Island? They were so named becuase a red berried and leafed bush grew there, and no where else in that area, years ago and at sunset, those bushes made the islands look like they were on fire.

Then look forther soouth. See the barrier beach that stretches from the Robert Moses State Park all the way east to the Shinecock Canal. See it's proper name "Great Barrier Beach," (often incorrectly called Fire Island because the early hotel owners there new the name Fire Island was sexier than Barrier Beach!)

Now, look at other maps of national seashores. Notice, as in this case, that it named for one geographical feature in the general area, and that naming does not change the name of the island that has been named then since cilpper ships sailes these waters.

Now, say you are sorry!

[ladyinred]

Bump for later

[Swordmaker]

But you are forgetting that there are virtually no places on Long Island where one sees the horizon without buildings in the way. What is the apparent horizon differential at 15 miles for a person standing in the front yard of a home, or across a parking lot, when there is a building in their way which eminates from ground level and passes through the true horizon and then the true horizintal axis?

First of all, this is irrelevant.

Secondly, Mindbent, it is patently untrue.

Does not Long Island have a shoreline? Are your hypothetical line-of-sight blocking buildings built on the water??? Yes, there may be some buildings that obscure views along the shore. but they are by no means a continuous wall that blocks all views. Have these buildings no windows? Balconies? Decks? Many of the witnesses WERE located where they had unimpeded views. Some were on decks, some were on beaches, some were in buildings looking out windows. Your argument was that the aircraft would have been BELOW THE HORIZON... not buildings and other things blocking the view of the horizon. Now you are backpeddling as fast as you can, adding other strawman objections for you to pontificate upon.

Exactly which "eyewitnesses" are you citing that you believe watched the downing of TWA-800 from viewpoints where buildings were "blocking their view?" Did these persons just imagine they were seeing a plane going down? Do they claim X-ray vision? Or is this your argument another fabrication with no basis in the witnesses' statements?

Were those witness who claimed to see something rise "From the horizon" to hit the aircraft REALLY confused? Do you really think they would confabulate the relatively small altitude gain of the NTSB's revised 1100-1600 foot "zoom climb" of a crippled 747 trailing burning leaking fuel(an 8 - 11.6% increased altitude compared to the originating altitude), with a high velocity missile rising from far below? Would the positional differentials between 13,800 and 15,400 be even that significant at the distances the witnesses were standing?

You have yet to resond with anything resembling facts... just more of your opinion.

It is entirely possible, or it was in the months following the disaster, to go to the sites WITH the claimed witnesses and observe exactly what was possible to have been seen while the witness shows where he was standing, at what angles he saw what he claims. This was done in many instances... but not by the NTSB or even the FBI. The FBI did go to a few... but only with the flawed, third hand 302 reports in hand, and NO interaction with the witnesses.

You used the figure of 72 miles... do you have any idea of how many people LIVE and WORK in a 72 mile radius of the downing of TWA-800? It is actually amazing that only 700 or so eyewitnesses have been identified.

Do you even understand the question?

Do you understand the math? Do you understand that the higher a person's viewpoint the farther away the horizon appears? Do you know that the horizon line of a person approximately 6 feet tall standing on the waterline of the ocean, will appear to be about 4.5 miles away? Do you know that, barring atmospheric distortion, an object more than 6 feet above sea level may be visible 9 MILES away by line of sight by that person???

Your flat statement that the aircraft would have been below the "horizon" to most of the witnesses is false... and I showed you why.

You keep backpeddling... raising other strawmen.

More importantly, why are you still trying to flack some scam book that only seeks to put money in the hands of the scammers, not the victims. FReepers deserve an answer from you about that.

My, my. You did fill that sentence up with loaded words.

Mindbent, I am not "flacking" a "scam" book for some "scammers." I haven't even read it... yet.

There is no more money for the victims. The deep pockets have already been tapped. The TWA-800 victim's families have completed their litigation relating to TWA-800 and have received compensation (If you can be compensated for such a loss with money) from TWA and Boeing.

The true "scam" of the TWA-800 tragedy is the one the Clinton politicized NTSB foisted on the American people: the "official finding" that TWA-800 was brought down by an unknown mechanical problem that caused the fumes in the Center Wing Tank to spontaneously explode and that the numerous eyewitness who thought they saw a missile or missiles climb up, impact on an aircraft and explode, only saw that same aircraft ZOOM CLIMBING from 13,800 feet an impossible 3500 feet to more than 17,000 feet before somehow exploding in a massive fireball below 7000 feet... and doing all of this in less than 45 seconds.

Why are you flacking THAT impossible scenario to protect the political pasts and futures of the Clinton administration slimes? Freepers deserve an answer from you about that.

[MindBender26]

You are right. You got me. I'm really Bill Clinton.

[acehai]

Look at a USGS nautical chart, not some stupid roadmap you got at the local gas station.

Look at the New York Terminal Area Chart, also the New York Sectional Aeronautical Chart issued by the Federal Avation Admenistration, U.S. Department of Transportation. Nowhere on them is "Great Barrier Beach" mentioned. But Fire Island National Seashore is promenantly labeled several times all along the barrier island chain that most people recognize as Fire Island.

Actually, your post illustrates the foolishness of one who has no idea that your dig at "so many amateur (non) pilots" is aimed at an ATP/CFII/MEI pilot with over 40 years experience reading and navigating safely with aeronautical charts.

I will not say I'm sorry...

I will thank you for the background of the two Fire Islands that show up on the "stupid gas station road map" and are not labeled as such on either the New York Terminal or Sectional chart.

[MindBender26]

As an experienced pilot, you know that Aeronautical charts, both Sectionals and WAC charts, have little ground nomenclature. They show shapes of significant ground features, lakes, shorelines, major roads, etc. so you can find your location visually, which is a good thing. They also show elevations, so we don't run into that ground, which is also a good thing. :~)

In most cases, they don't bother to name a feature, because, from the air, who cares what it's called, as long as we can recognise it and navigate as a result.

Nomenclature such as "Fire Island National Seashore" are there to help pilots obey special rules re: noise abatement and minimum altitudes over National Seashores, some National Parks, etc. They are not there for navigation or identification purposes.

If you are in the area, look at Marine Navigational Chart 12352, It gives specific legal names to all named land features. That's important because boaters needing assitance need to be acurately describe their position on the radio, such as "3 miles Southwest of Jones Inlet", "in Peconic Bay, 2 miles Northeast of the north end of the Shinnecock Canal," etc.

Fnally, the legal name Great Barrier Beach is well known locally there, as demonstrated in www.whbvillage.com/info.html

All the above notwithstanding, the City folks who invade Long Island's South Shore universally (and incorrectly) call GBB "Fire Island" .... and just to put one more misconception to rest, despite the Johnny Carson jokes, only about 5 percent of Fire Island is Gay. Cherry Grove is very gay, but other communities are solid family, etc.

Enjoy!

[MindBender26]

Also, please look at the nomenclature of the Sectional or Approach chart. It should show a border around the area designated as the Fire Island National Seashore that encompasses GBB, the Fire ISlands, Way Way Yonder and the surrounding areas.

GBB is clearly marked on naucital chart, as are other named islands, East Fire, West Fire, etc.

[timestax]

pinging for the truth to come out!