Flight 800: Breakthrough!

WorldNetDaily ^ | March 13, 2003 | Jack Cashill

[MindBender26]

Remember, this is all about one thing. To try to get you to buy a book. That's all.

[timestax]

bump

[acehai]

E-mail him and ask of he agrees with that statement.

Don't have to...And besides, I wouldn't want to cause him to laugh himself to death.

It's painfully obvious that you have no idea what the $hite you're talking about. Do yourself a favor and go back and review Swordmakers posts having to do with the alleged "zoom-climb" before you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already have.

Also review the "speed of light/speed of sound" argument you are trying to push. That hound won't hunt either.

acehai/ATP/CFII/MEI/Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor. 10,000 hrs.

[Swordmaker]

Should read: An aircraft that loses all of the weight forward of the wing is completely out of balance. When that happens, an aircraft will immediately pitch up and stall when it goes into a climb and eventually has consumed enough energy in the climb so that the angle of attack of the wing causes the aforementioned stall.

And exactly WHAT force changes the forward North-Easterly momentum of TWA-800 to vertical momentum??? Unless air is rushing over the wing at a proper angle of attack, there is no lift. The engines revert to idle as soon as the signal from the cockpit is lost... which is lost along with the cockpit with the loss 50,000 pounds of the forward fuselage.

At the time of the initiating event, TWA-800 was moving north-easterly at approximately 660 feet per second and upward at 30 feet per second as it climbed through 13,800 feet. To have climbed the 3000 - 3500 feet in eight seconds the CIA cartoon claimed would require an average of 375 to 435 feet per second of velocity in EACH SECOND... since that is an average velocity per second, with an upward velocity of 0 feet per second at the peak of the arc, the initial velocity would have to be MUCH higher. Are you then saying that EVERY BIT FORWARD VECTORED VELOCITY was instantly converted into upward vectored velocity? Do you have any idea what the G forces would total in such a vector change? Do you even know what inertia is? Please explain where the sixteen seconds of climb and fall came from or went to... and while you are at it why not explain why the main body of the aircraft wreckage was found exactly where a computer using a purely ballistic program said it would come to rest when original altitude, velocity and vector were input WITHOUT putting in a mythical 3000 foot climb. Remember, while you are attempting to explain these things, that the laws of physics cannot be set aside for your convenience.

Here was the analysis that I did initially several months ago on another thread:

---------------------

Think of it this way... the plane was climbing by the appliation of a force that caused it to rise at approximately 33 feet every second. This force is the TOTAL LIFT of all wing surfaces.

For our purposes we will assume that the VECTOR of this force is straight up. The aircraft is subject to gravity and, absent a counteracting force, will fall 16 feet in the 'next' second. The wing lift force is actually sufficient to overcome that 'fall' AND to also to lift it another 33 feet in that 'next' second, a total of ~55 feet per second of force straight up.

Another force being applied to the plane is the drag of the atmosphere's fluid flowing into, around, and behind all surfaces of the aircraft. To maintain forward speed at level flight this force is counteracted by the thrust of the engines that is kept in equilibrium with the TOTAL drag. Drag increases with speed and decreases with altitude. Let's assume that TWA800 was equipped with the most powerful Rolls Royce engines Boeing mounts on that airframe (it wasn't) which are rated at 80,600 LBS of maximum thrust each. Let's further assume (conservatively) that TWA800 had its throttles set at 50% and the engines were producing 40,300 Lbs of thrust or a combined total thrust of 161,200 Lbs to overcome 161,200 Lbs of drag.

Now we have the initiating event. The nose is blown off, the control signals to the engine are instantly cut off, and the engines immediately revert to idle speed (per Boeing) producing minimal thrust. The aircraft, responding to the sudden loss of the nose and power, pitches upwards on the fulcrum of its center of gravity. The drag (if the plane were intact) is the equivalent of all four engines thrusting in the OPPOSITE direction at 161,200 Lbs! The plane starts decelleration. The pitched up attitude increases forward drag by some unknown but not insignificant amount. The vector of the lift is NO LONGER STRAIGHT UP... it is instead angled somewhat backwards and adds to the decelleration. The wind of forward motion no longer flows over a conical nose but rather is caught on a jagged fuselage skin, adding to the force torquing the plane about the fulcrum of the CoG. The tail surfaces are also dropped into the windtream and will, being on the other side of the fulcrum add a countering vector to the massive forces working to pitch the plane up. However, the tail is designed to be either slightly reverse lift or nuetral, it will stall even earlier than the main wing.

Remember the lift? It is falling off rapidly as the angle of attack is increased and the speed is decreasing. Gravity's acceleration vector is STILL straight down. The drag's force vector is still straight back through the direction of travel... both still being applied to the aircraft. There are no forces being applied any longer to counteract any of these.

No more energy is being added to the system. The disconnected parts of the plane still have a lot of kinetic energy but they can only lose energy at this point. The momentum is retained by all parts proportionate to their mass. All of those parts are subject to the forces of gravity and those applied by drag and friction. What energy the plane had in its momentum is rapidly being applied to lift or trying to overcome drag... it is a losing battle. If the wing miraculously maintains a proper angle of attack, the energy momentum will be exchanged for altitude... but the wings don't and go quickly to stall... no lift at all.

All energy contained in the momentum of the system will be applied in trying to overcome the drag. Gravity is INSTANTLY pulling the entire shebang downward at an acceleration of 32 feet every second. The Upward momentum vector is overcome fairly quickly after lift is lost... less than one second. Without lift, the aircraft will fall 32 feet in the next second and 64 in the following... accelerating at 32 feet per second until it reaches terminal velocity of about 450 feet per second in 15 seconds. It will have fallen ~3810 feet in the 15 seconds after stall.

The forward momentum is rapidly being used up by drag. Asuming the plane mantained lift for 3 seconds after the IE, and not allowing for any decelleration or loss of lift, the MOST the plane could have risen is a mere 100 feet... but let's give it 200.

0 seconds - IE @ 13,800
3 seconds - stall and start of ballistic fall @ 14,000
18 seconds - terminal velocity - ~450 ft/sec. @ 10,190
24 seconds - Massive fireball - fuel/air explosion @ 7,300
41 seconds - Ocean impact - 0 feet.

That's what the radar said... loss of signal to first ocean impact - ~38 to 44 seconds.

If we add in either climb scenario we have to add 18 seconds for the climb... and from 3 to 9 seconds more for the fall. The CIA scenario needs 27 more seconds than can be accounted for and the NTSB scenario needs 21 seconds more than can be accounted for.

Sounds like the new Accounting math being used by Enron and its ilk.

Finally:

"Ballistic Fall.
The captain of the NOAA research ship Rude entered Flight 800's last secondary radar position, speed, heading and gross weight into his computer and it predicted the landing point by calculating a ballistic fall. He went to that spot and immediately found the main wreckage including the fuselage, wings and engines. "

Unless you want to repeal the law of gravity, there literally is not enough time for ANY climb at all.

Period.

[Swordmaker]

Finally, up from the surface questions: Most simple. From where most of the witnesses were standing, the A/C was at or below the horizon. Why? Curvature of the earth. Many times have stood where those witnesses were and watched Europe-bound A/C that look like they are 500 feet AGL, until you realize they out over the Atlantic and are actually 15,000 feet AGL +/-.

BULLPUCKY!!!! I live in the Central Valley of California... the Sierra Nevada Mountains are due east of me approximately 50-75 miles away. The altitude of these mountains is approximately 15,000 feet max and I can look out my window and see them quite nicely, thank you.

Flight 800 was between 10 and 15 miles from most witnesses. The horizon line for a person standing with his eyes 30 feet above sea level is about seven miles away... and that person can see something by line of sight 14 miles away if it is also 30 feet or more above sea level. Do you have any other strawman arguments (untruths) to offer?

If I recall correctly, the radar horizon for one of the active radars that was about 22 miles away was 43 feet because the antenna was mounted on a tower.

[Swordmaker]

If I recall correctly, the radar horizon for one of the active radars that was about 22 miles away was 43 feet because the antenna was mounted on a tower.

Oops... I did not word that last paragraph quite right. The 43 feet is the distance above the ocean that the radar COULD NOT SEE because it was below the horizon. The actual horizon was about 13 miles from the radar. Sorry about that.

[MindBender26]

And exactly WHAT force changes the forward North-Easterly momentum of TWA-800 to vertical momentum???

I'm sorry, but if the amateur engineers here don't know the answer to that questions, I'm not about to waste time debunking all your pseudo math and amateur engineering. Your base understanding of aerodynames and lift vectors, kinetic energy, mass, etc. are off. I'm not going to waste my time here explaining it to those who will not see.

[MindBender26]

Actually, no. A/C was 12-15 miles offshore from firtually uninhabited Great Barrier Beach, often incorrectly called Fire Island.

The "witness" reports are often from much farther away, some as far as 72 miles.

There is another problem. Where you live, you probably can see the mountains with no problem due to the sparseness of the area. On Long Island, most areas have a displaced horizon due to neighbooring houses, trees, etc.

One final item that ends argument. Witnesses report initial 5-10 second duration bright glow, followed by a much dimmer "loose" orange vertical streak, decreasing marketly in intensity, ending in extingusihment or little lights descending below horizon. This is indicitive of a kerosene explosion, and a zoom climb with fuel being consumed.

Missile attack would have been very short diration, well compacted intense white light, not orange-yellow light, followed by small, constantant intensity well formed white light, finally resulting in a large orange/yellow keresene explosion.

[ACross]

Hey mudboy -- I asked for specifics, and you didn't provide any.

[Mudboy Slim]

Janet Reno OBSTRUCTED the Waco Investigation...Janet Reno OBSTRUCTED the Whitewater Investigation...Janet Reno OBSTRUCTED the Chi-ComBribery Investigation!!

Janet Reno was, is, and will always be Bill Clinton's BI+C#!!

Specific enuff?!

MUD

[Grampa Dave]

Actually its real name is Jake Reno!

[Mudboy Slim]

Actually, its REAL Name is "Butch!!"

Or so I am told...MUD

[Grampa Dave]

Jake is a polite way of saying Butch!

[Mudboy Slim]

Yeah, but Jake is my boy's name...LOL!!

FReegards...MUD

[Grampa Dave]

Your Bubba Jake is a real boy, who will be a real man.

As a sideline, my poor DIL, now that her son (my grandson is two) has given up re his name. She just calls him Bubba. He is 36 pounds and built like a middle linebacker with zero fear of anything.

[Mudboy Slim]

"Your Bubba Jake is a real boy..."

Yep...yer Right, Grampa Gipetto.

"As a sideline, my poor DIL, now that her son (my grandson is two) has given up re his name. She just calls him Bubba. He is 36 pounds and built like a middle linebacker with zero fear of anything."

LOL...I'm increasingly convinced that ALL boys are hard-wired that way!! My nephews Ryan and Zack are out there in Germany with their parents, so I can't really speak fer him all that well, but Nate and Bruno are local, they're HUGE, and they're relentless, just like JakeyBoy!!

What are we feeding them?!! RAW MEAT!!

LOL...MUD

[Grampa Dave]

This kid about nursed his poor mother dry. However, the last 6 months he will eat only maybe one really good meal per day. He is not starving.

Now that he is starting to run as well as climb, that baby fat is melting into muscles. He has had vice grip fingers ever since he was about 4 months old.

Not all of the younger boys are built like him. One boy the age of Bubba's sister is built like my grand daughter, tall and slim. He has picked on Bubba until recently. A month ago he tried his sneak attack, and Bubba's sister flattened him and told him to leave him alone.

The dumb kid went after Bubba's sister. Bubba slammed him to the floor and pinned him. When the kid started to scratch Bubba, Bubba bit him. In the meantime Bubba's sister got involved. The bully kid was screaming, and his mother told our DIL to let justice go on. When it was over, she told him not pick on Bubba or Bubba's sister. Then, if he picked on his one year old brother, she would let Bubba and his sister do whatever they wanted to. He has been an angel since then. He wore a Bandaid for a week where Bubba bit him.

[Swordmaker]

I'm sorry, but if the amateur engineers here don't know the answer to that questions, I'm not about to waste time debunking all your pseudo math and amateur engineering.

Of course you won't... because you cannot. I provide specifics... you provide hokum. You have not even TRIED to explain anything. You merely toss out ex cathedra pronouncesments like your idiotic (and now debunked) claim that TWA-800 would have been below the horizon for the majority of witnesses.

[Swordmaker]

One final item that ends argument. Witnesses report initial 5-10 second duration bright glow, followed by a much dimmer "loose" orange vertical streak, decreasing marketly in intensity, ending in extingusihment or little lights descending below horizon. This is indicitive of a kerosene explosion, and a zoom climb with fuel being consumed.

Er, Mindbent26, exactly which witnesses are these? Please provide the citations from the third hand FBI 302s. I do not recall ANY that describe what you just said... so that you can easily shoot them down. Another strawman postulation.

[FBD]

Hey Mud, I see you have introduced yourself to ACross.

Check out Across’ views on SUV owners.

When pressed on this point by Bluntpoint:
ACROSS; What is a person, who lives in the country, on a ranch, who occasionally hunts, who does not drive a SUV?

But wait, there’s more wisdom from ACROSS: Across says: "I like quiche..."

LOL! ACROSS, how in the world did you find your way here from the D.U. .com? Did you get here in a Yugo??? LOL!

FRegards