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Posted on 03/09/2003 4:26:55 PM PST by MadIvan
Foetuses may develop consciousness long before the legal age limit for abortions, one of Britain's leading brain scientists has said.
Baroness Greenfield, a professor of neurology at Oxford University and the director of the Royal Institution, said there was evidence to suggest the conscious mind could develop before 24 weeks, the upper age where terminations are permitted.
Although she fell short of calling for changes in the abortion laws, she urged doctors and society to be cautious when assuming unborn babies lacked consciousness. "Is the foetus conscious? The answer is yes, but up to a point," she said.
"Given that we can't prove consciousness or not, we should be very cautious about being too gung ho and assuming something is not conscious. We should err on the side of caution."
Last year, a Daily Telegraph straw poll found many neurologists were concerned that foetuses could feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks after conception.
Many believed foetuses should be given anaesthetics during a late abortion, after 20 weeks. Some also believe pain relief should be given for keyhole surgery in the womb.
Abortions are allowed up to 24 weeks in Britain, but are rarely given so late. Around 90 per cent of the 175,000 planned terminations that take place each year in England and Wales are in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Around 1.5 per cent - or 2,600 - take place after the 20th week.
Terminations after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances if, for instance, the mother's life is threatened.
Lady Greenfield is sceptical of philosophers and doctors who argue that consciousness is "switched on" at some point during the brain's development.
She believes instead that there is a sliding scale of consciousness and that it develops gradually as neurons, or brain cells, make more and more connections with each other.
She told the British Fertility Society in London last week that she had serious concerns about foetal consciousness.
"The Home Office has legislation that applies to a mammal and they have now extended it to the octopus, a mollusc, because it can learn," she said. "If a mollusc can be attributed with being sentient, and now has Home Office protection, then my own view is that we should be very cautious after making assumptions."
In 2001 a Medical Research Council expert group said unborn babies might feel pain as early as 20 weeks and almost certainly by 24. They called for more sensitive treatment of very premature babies, who often had to undergo painful procedures like heel pricks and injections.
When you were a very tiny baby, you knew who your mother was, and you remembered who she was from day to day. So even though you might not have a conscious memory of that, you did start remembering almost immediately from birth (and probably before).
Is this why public opinion is turning more against abortion or why even Norma McCorvey had her mind changed? I think you are confused between what pro-life people are really saying and what the media says they are saying. I've been to the March for Life and the camera crews took great pains go pass by the crowds of nice college studends and pillar of society types to find the loons in the costumes with the strange things to say.
I think that is more of a conditioned response than what I'd consider a real memory, but that's certainly how the process begins.
But many so-called anti-abortion spokemen make whether they suffer or not the point, and that is what is wrong. I am opposed to abortion, but when others make these absurd arguments supposedly against abortion, and which are easily refuted by any good highschool debater, they are helping the pro-abortion cause.
You are absolutely right, the point here is not primarily whether they suffer or not, but look how many on this thread have made it the point. When that false point is refuted, look at the damage they have done.
Find out who your enemies are. Often it is those who claim to be your friends.
Hank
The only criteria that seperates man from beast is "sentience" or the fully aware mind. That isn't present a birth but turns on around 2 years of age and why most adults don't remember much before around 2 years of age. If you limit yourself to current capabilities, you are going to be forced to draw your line at that point as. What you do is to use this to illustrate that any other line between conception and that point is a red herring and give your opponent the choice. Two years or conception. You must pick one. And, trust me, getting people to admit that they support infanticide is the easiest way to drive decent people who know better into the pro-life camp.
RB
What the heck does "yes" mean when she says in the next sentance she dosen't know ?
"yes, but up to a point"
means exactly what ?
I can guarantee you that every foetus is a certain percent conscious since zero is also a percentage.
Yes, In my mind the question is: when does human life begin? Are the unborn people?
I have friends who think abortion should be legal, they were ‘offended’ by people who thought it should be illegal. They were also offended when I pointed out that people who wanted to outlaw abortion considered it the moral equivalent of putting a loaded gun to the head of a five year old, and pulling the trigger.
The the best argument against abortion is that at some point the unborn are humans, with all the rights of humans. What this point is could be debated, but there must be a point.
I do not recall defining sleep as, "total unconsciousness," because it seldom is, although comatose states probably are. I know that most have missed my point, so I will state it clearly. Suppose it is proved the unborn absolutely do not experience what we mean by conscious pain, at any stage?
Does that make any difference? Does that make abortion OK?
If you keep making these specious arguments against abortion, you are helping the pro-abortion movement. Is that what you want?
Abortion is wrong, it is harmful to all involved, it is a complete distortion of all that sex, and love, and life, and morality, and motherhood are about. But I am afraid, the biggest promoters of abortion are those who fancy themselves as "pro-life."
Hank
| Fetal Psychology Behaviorally speaking, there's little difference between a newborn baby and a 32-week-old fetus. A new wave of research suggests that the fetus can feel, dream, even enjoy The Cat in the Hat. The abortion debate may never be the same. ...
Fetal AlertnessScientists who follow the fetus' daily life find that it spends most of its time not exercising these new abilities but sleeping. At 32 weeks, it drowses 90 to 95% of the day. Some of these hours are spent in deep sleep, some in REM sleep, and some in an indeterminate state, a product of the fetus' immature brain that is different from sleep in a baby, child, or adult. During REM sleep, the fetus' eyes move back and forth just as an adult's eyes do, and many researchers believe that it is dreaming. DiPietro speculates that fetuses dream about what they know - the sensations they feel in the womb. Dr. Janet Dipietro studies the behavior of the fetus in the womb Their studies include examinations of the fetal heart rate, fetal movement, and other factors in the womb that display the development of the fetus. She has found an apparent period of accelerated neurobehavioral development in the fetus during the third trimester, between 28 and 32 weeks. During this time, fetuses display more mature patterns of heart rate, respond more to external sounds, display sleeping patterns like newborns and exhibit more regular periods of activity. This indicates that the nervous system is forming more neural connections. She is currently trying to prove two hypotheses: 1) that the fetus responds to the mother's emotional state and 2) that negative emotions and stress affect development negatively and can affect the baby's temperament. |
The sacrifice of an innocent sin free soul, just so they can go back to whoring the following weekend. Pathetic.
So abortion is all right before the 28th week? While I don’t claim to speak for Hank, his argument seems to be that we need to argue against abortion on a more fundamental level. There many people in hospitals who do not respond to external stimuli, can we kill them?
This is my question now, are the unborn protected by the Fifth Amendment to the constitution (i.e. nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;.
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Check Priests for Life
As I posted this the number increased by five!!!
Number of babies killed by abortion since
January 22, 1973:
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