My Kid wants a gun...

Home | 3/3/03 | Patton

[patton]

Ok, my son is ready to upgrade from his .22 (the one my dad gave me).

His requirements are 1000m accuracy, cheap ammo.

Our deal is I buy the hardware, he buys the optics.

1000$ limit ($800 rifle, $200 optics).

Ideas?

[spunkets]

Remington 700 in 270cal for cheaper ammo. The scope though will cost more than 200 for 1000yd shooting, ~2-3x more. The I'm only familiar with some scopes...Leupold works, they're worth the $s. The others I had sucked. There may be less costly ones that keep their settings like the Leupold.

[Mulder]

Remington 700 P series: .308, .300 Win Mag

I'd second that.... with a good scope on top.

Expect to pay as much for the scope as for the rifle.

BTW: A decent scope is a Bushnell Banner. I picked one up recently for $150. It has a 50mm adjustable objective, and the magnification in 6-18X. But if I were shooting at 500+ yards, I'd definitely want something like a Leupold scope.

[TheBattman]

OK---you asked for advice and here is mine. If you don't like it, fine. I would also check some other message boards to verify my information. One where the guys are really good and honest answers is:

http://www.varminthunters.com Also known as the "Varmint's Den". Just go to the "message board" and ask away. Some good, down to earth guys that will be straight with you and who understand a budget.

Now, for my suggestion -

Optics are one point you don't want to skimp on . You can get a rifle that is very accurate out of the box for less than you budget, as long as you are not worried about it being the prettiest on the block.

For $1000, I would look for a Savage 10FP in .308 or the 110FP in .300 WinMag. These Savages come with the new "Accutrigger" which is a fully adjustable (By the CONSUMER!) trigger. The "FP" series is the tactical version with heavy barrel.

Now, I know that Savage, or "salvage" as some may slurr it, isn't a "Cadillac", but it is by far the most accurate factory gun out-of-box I have seen. Again, ask in circles where folks on a budget are serious about accuracy and you will find Savage on the list of "buy".

Add to the out-of-box accuracy the fact that Savage's actions are probably the easiest factory rifle to put new barrels on and you have a very flexible platform for a variety of calibers.

Now, with the money left over from the $1000 budget, you are looking at around $550+ for optics which puts a lot more good glass in the package - I would look hard at the Baushe & Lombe "Elite" series. They can be had for less than that and are truly nice.

For a little more dough, you might look at a Leupold VXII or a Burris Signature Series or Fullfield II in 4.5-14 or 6-20 power. Also look at Burris Signature rings.

A good source for good prices on scopes (I have done business with them):

http://www.swfa.com/riflescopes/index.html

Look here for more info on Savage rifles:
http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire/varmint/varmint_home.htm

For that matter, just browse their web site at http://www.savagearms.com for some interesting info.

Also, don't forget the Varmint's Den link above.

With the suggested combination above, you should be able to get into a rig that will outshoot rifles that cost more alone than your entire combo. I would stake my word on it! I prefer guns I can use - I don't care how pretty they are....they just work... and Savage get's the job done!

Now, my flame-retardant suite is on in to protect myself from the "cheap gun haters".

[45Auto]

The Remington 700 is pretty good right out of the box. I was so impressed with the little Model 700 LTR in .223, that I aquired one in .308 as well. The thing has a short barrel, 20 inches, but will shoot 1" at 100 yards and sometimes, with the right loads, under the right conditions, 1/2 inch with consistency. Part of it, in my opinion, is the H and S Precision stock with its aluminum bedding block. I installed a Jewell 2 ounce trigger in the LTR and I was impressed with the nature of the action-to-bedding-block fit. It shouldn't work, but it does. I have professional pillar/glass bedding in my benchrest guns, but for the money, the H and S stock is good for half inch five-shot groups with the right ammo.

[archy]

He can probably do right well with a Savage 10 FP rifle, probably preferably in .308 unless there's some overriding consideration, which probably will shoot better than either he or I can. Scopes becomes more of a question due to the wider variances in different individuals eyes, but if he's hoping to shoot out to a thousand, he'll likely want a top-of-the line 30MM bodied 10X mil-dot scope. I wear glasses now, with 54 birthdays behind me, and so prefer the B&L Tactical, whose lens coatings cause me less problems with glare than the Leopold and some other possible offerings. The Tasco 10X mil-dot is probably still available, though I understand the firm has been sold, and last time I looked, one of the Tasco SS-10-42 30mm 10x scopes could be had for around $400. The Navy found these quite acceptable on the M700 target rifles rebuilt into Navy M86 sniper's rifles, so they're at least likely worthy of consideration. *check here* to see if SWFA gets another run of them made, or consider an alternative from IOR/Valdada to stay within your stated price guidelines.

Do know that eventually, he may require the absolutely best equipment available, at which time you're probably talking at least $1000 for the scope, and $3000-$3500 for the rifle...or a rebuild of the rifle he's used to may suffice, with improved optics. Barrel life with a conventional carbon steel barrel should run on the order of 10,000 rounds; stainless, about half that. He'll likely need to learn to reload as an economy measure, but that's also a way to be certain of the best quality of components and procedures used for assembling accurate ammo for the accurate rifle- it takes both to make the system work.

You'd likely also do well to get him a copy of Jeff Cooper's Book of the Rifle and to investigate J. David Tubb's books on accurate long-range match shooting. A hundred dollars so spent can easily save 5 times that amount in wasted ammunition, and half a year's wasted time. I hope he's learned real fundamentals of riflery from his .22, and if so, that will serve him well with the heavier and longer-ranged rifle too. If not, two 500-round *bricks* of target-grade .22 ammo can be a nother really wise investment, partricularly if they're used up about 150 or so at a time.

My own approach was different: I started my kid with a bolt-action military Lee-Enfield; powerful and effective, and he respected and appreciated its capabilities from the beginning. But there's merit to either approach, though there's a been a little more history written with the Enfield than the very reliable and practical Savage rifles. But there's still room for the Savage to make its mark as well.

[I got the rope]

Nice one...one of my friends pulled this one out on a recent hunting trip(.308) in West Texas. Very nice. Dropped a whitetail at 307-310 yards.

[patton]

Optics over budget - I could live with that...

[OldFriend]

I have a big problem with your title........My Kid Wants......

[July 4th]

It's really easy to get a C&R license provided you have a clean background. It's $30 for 3 years, and lets you buy a whole bunch of stuff through the mail that would normally need to be sent to a dealer. Try this site for more info: http://users.pld.com/willj/curio/getacr.htm

As another poster said - warning! It's really addictive. You can get fine pieces of hardware that once belonged to foreign militaries for $100. They come packed in cosmoline, yes, but they're cheap and they work (usually). I have three that have been sitting in the closet for over a year. No time to clean them up.

[marktwain]

Definitely the way to go is the Savage .308 varmint gun with their new Accutrigger. User adjustable from 1.5 to 6 lbs. Do NOT skimp on the scope for long range shooting. I usually figure to spend near the cost of the rifle on the scope. I'd recommend Leopold or Burris at the low end, but you might do with a Nikon or Weaver.

Get the Savage, they are known for their phenomenal accuracy out of the box, .308 surplus ammo is available, and some is pretty accurate. To get top accuracy, you will have to reload or buy match ammo. Still, I hear stories that some of the surplus ammon can hold 20 - 30 inch groups at 1000 yards.

You may also find a better deal on the web auctions for the rifle. Try Auction Arms or one of the other firarm auction sites. They are completely legal, and everything is on the up and up.

[8mmMauser]

Did somebody call me?

[Tailback]

RE: Post #43 Excellent advice Battman, lots of good info there.

[patton]

The kid is frikkin' gifted. His first shot group with the .22 (I MEAN, HIS FIRST) at 50m fit under a dime. Hangs on my wall.

[Ryan Patrick]

lets see... 10 bucks a week? i might not be able to at my rate...

[yonif]

Thanks.
Do you know of any good businesses or websites that show advertisments for these guns?

[yarddog]

The kid is not only gifted he has one heck of a .22, what is it?

[umgud]

Ping

[archy]

While we are on the subject, anyone know of a good pistol a first-time gun owner should buy to start out?

With the changeover to semiauto handguns by most police departments, there are literally tons of traded-in very high quality revolvers of the sort carried by police for most of the XX Century. Several makes and models are more common than others, but all share the working cop's virtues of reliability and simplicity, and police academy training on such handguns was basic enough that even most of the lowest common denominator recruits could qualify with a few weeks' training. Similar equipment was used by the military for rear-area security personnel and aiercrew and others whose duties required that they be armed with a handgun, even if somewhat hurriedly as an adjunct to their other duties. You can do far worse than to pick up a good used ex-police service revolver in .38 Special or .357 magnum chambering, and learn with that as a foundation...and if you never move beyond that piece of equipment, you'll still be well served. It's an excellent choice both for the rookie and the practiced, experienced user.

-archy-/-

[katana]

Instead of a Mauser how about a Springfield 1903? Either would be an excellent in terms of accuracy and range (not sure about the cost of the ammo) but a Springfield might provide some appreciation for what our soldier (1917 to 1942) ancestors used.