The Future is Muslim, European or American

Town Hall ^ | February 25, 2003 | Dennis Prager

[x]

Christian self-denial helped fuel capitalist development, and may do so in Latin America and parts of Africa. Once societies become wealthy enough, though, capitalists grow restive under Christian restraints. Christian morality is seen as a barrier to further economic development fueled by mass consumption. Religious leaders are uneasy with mass consumption capitalism and some ally with government efforts to use accumulated wealth for "social" ends. So the Christian-capitalist synthesis breaks up.

The US is the great exception to this evolution, though in the 1950s and 1960s it probably didn't look that way. Evangelical Christianity is very strongly rooted here, but it wasn't in Europe and it's unclear just how exportable our model is.

We send other countries mixed messages and it's not clear which part will get through. My guess is that it's too much to expect that other countries will follow both our religious broadcasters and our secular advertisers.

[valkyrieanne]

Hmmm. Don't an awful lot of Christians believe the same thing about Christianity?

With one critical little difference - that people should become Christians *of their own free will.*

Yes, we all know about conversion by the sword, the Inquisition, etc. That was then, this is now. Christians in general do NOT believe in converting people by force, or killing them if they try to leave Christianity. To suggest that we do is not only ridiculous, but takes away from the reality that Islam across the world *does* these things today, and that millions of people are dying regularly because of it.

[YankeeReb]

Was it Khruschev who said that we would destroy ourselves from within? I don't know if this is what he had in mind,but his words were prophetic.

Kruschev said it, but Lincoln also said it about a century before.

[MississippiMan]

This is probably the best definition of our world at this point in time I have ever read.

Agree. Very, very well thought out, well presented, and sadly, accurate.

MM

[YankeeReb]

Hmmm. Don't an awful lot of Christians believe the same thing about Christianity?

Yes but by and large Christians are content to let people discover the truth on their own. Islamists prefer to convert by force.

Obviously, some followers of Islam present serious problems in our world today, but I am not convinced that there are not a good many moderate Muslims

I hope you're right here, trouble is in the face of Islamic terrorism the silence from these moderates has been deafening.

[x]

A lot depends on how you read "socialist". I read it as a party name, not a comprehensive system of state ownership. Europeans view their social democracy as the next stage in the development of capitalism, not a negation of it. And the victory of the welfare state in Europe is linked to the decline of Christianity. As religious faith declined so did the ethic of individual responsibility, and the demand for government provision increased.

So far the US has been a hold out, because of our strong religious faith. I suppose that we'll remain hold outs, but I don't know how exportable our system is. So, yes, the short answer is that secular capitalism is possible, but it will probably have more welfarist elements, and it's not "the American Way."

There's a possibility that the US will secularize without developing a bigger welfare state. Perhaps the great opportunities of financial success will keep citizens working hard, taxes low, and bureaucracy weak, even without transcendental moral sanctions, but I won't bet on it. Eventually it becomes too easy for the "have nots" to outvote the "haves" or for the "haves" to buy off the "have nots" by giving them what they want.

Another possibility is that global competition, mass immigration, or declining birthrates, will render European-style welfare states obsolete or unsustainable. Maybe they will collapse under their own weight. In that case, maybe the future will look American after all.

[Torie]

Think Singapore. Granted the place has authoritarian elements. You are making a yeoman's effort to save an article that is a mess, and cannot be saved. It is in terminal condition.

[x]

They say that Singapore is governed by the "Confucian ethic," something that's not easily exportable. Westerners, at any rate, have historically been more inclined to bow down to God than to yield to society. And if religious faith dies out it's unlikely that a social ethic will work either.

A Singapore-style regime wouldn't work here. People are too rebellious and dislike conformity. You can't just impose rules on people and expect them to like it. People may follow the rules if there are few of them, and people make them themselves, but you won't get the kind of enthusiastic obedience that trational East Asian societies have commanded. You have to be satisfied with minimal obedience and minimal social cohesion or find ways of sugarcoating the pill of compliance.

I suppose that European societies do survive with little religious faith and have done so for at least a generation, but whether they'll endure over the long haul is another question. Maybe they will be able to keep going by resorting to this or that expedient. It doesn't look like Europe will collapse into chaos any time soon. But the vitality, resilience, and energy of Western Europe do look diminished or impaired.

The Praeger article does have weaknesses. What I think people respond to is the general theme and the stimulus it gives us to develop our own thoughts.

[Torie]

You know, I never noticed it was written by Praeger until you mentioned it. LOL. Praeger is a smart and decent man, but he lacks peripheral vision, and has trouble seeing shades of grey. That has been my opinion for a long time.

[LiteKeeper]

bump for later 2

[snowtigger]

BTTT

[cerberus]

I hope you're right here, trouble is in the face of Islamic terrorism the silence from these moderates has been deafening.

That concerns me too and yet there are many who have spoken out and who are supporting us in our drive to get rid of Saddam.

Remember Muslims were instrumental in nabbing Khalid Muhammad in the last few days.

For us in the West to villify all Muslims merely plays into the hands of the extremists who portray us as infidels out to destroy the followers of Islam.

Yes but by and large Christians are content to let people discover the truth on their own. Islamists prefer to convert by force.

I find this to be a rather sweeping generalization. Over the years I have known a number of Muslims, none of them tried to convert me by force or otherwise. I have known a few (very few fortunately) Christians who almost had to be beaten off with a stick.

I don't mean to make a blanket defense of Islam or to attack Christianity, however I seriously question some of the sweeping judgements that are made of Islam by people who really know little of what they are talking about.

[cerberus]

Not true. The moon god of Islam is nothing like the loving Creator worshiped by Christians. The Creator provided a Savior for fallen humanity, His own Son -- Allah is nothing like the One True God.

The common roots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are common knowledge to anyone who has taken Comparative Religions 101.

[Theo]

Of course all three religions "branch out" from Abraham. The point I was making is that the adherents to the three religions "worship the same God." Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, as I explained in my earlier post.

... common knowledge to anyone who has taken Comparative Religions 101

A bit condescending?

[cerberus]

The God of Israel has a Son - Jesus Christ of Nazareth; but Allah has no son according to the Koran.

Therefore the Biblical Christian God of Israel is not Allah.

Your logic is faulty.

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. Jews and Muslims do not. At the same time, Muslims hold Jesus in high esteem. Notice, for example, when a Muslim, such as Mansour Ijaz, mentions the name Jesus or the name Mohammed he follows it with the respectful phrase, "Peace Be Unto Him.".

Muslims believe that the notion that God has a Son is a form of blasphemy because it detracts from the absolute greatness of God. Christians, Muslims and Jews have some differences of opinion about the nature of God, but all believe in the same lineage of mankind going back to Adam and the same creator.

[Bobby777]

ye do err for you know not the Scriptures ...

the God of the Bible goes to great lengths to introduce and exalt His Son in Christ ... by the New Testament any voice that denies the Deity and Messiahship of Christ is the voice of the Antichrist (1st John - 3 times)

Islam by the koran denies the Deity and Messiahship of Christ ... those of Ishmael's descendents who have become muslims have forsaken the God of Israel for a strange "god" ... the koran makes no bones about it ...

it should be fairly noted they may repent of such belief and come to know Christ as Saviour but they much acknowledge His Deity and Messiahship ... indeed, He desires it so ...

reducing Christ to prophet, regardless of "respect" is full denial of His Messiahship and Deity ... the koran goes to great lengths to deny the Deity of Christ ... it is therefore the voice of the antichrist ...

but 2nd Corinthians 4:3-4 foretells of such ...

[Bobby777]

The Dinner Table - [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

God is not schizophrenic ...

[cerberus]

ye do err for you know not the Scriptures ...

Which Scriptures?

You miss the point.

No one can prove whether or not God has a Son or for that matter that God exists. These are matters of faith upon which people do not agree.

A person can believe in any Scripture they wish, but no one can prove beyond a doubt that those who follow another are wrong.

In a way you are proving my point, because many Muslims are as convinced of the truth of their beliefs as you are of yours, but that does not necessarily mean that either of you embody truth.

[Bobby777]

the only truth in Scripture started as the Jewish Talmud and further became the Bible when the New Testament was added ...

sincere or not, they must accept Christ as Saviour ... once a person does that, they will not follow another "master" nor will they deny His Deity and Messiahship (Matthew 28:19) ...

The Gospel is for all men and women ... however, not all men and women embrace the Gospel of Free Reconciliation in Christ ...

Jesus said, "I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me"

this has nothing to do with whether one is a "good" person or a "bad" person ... God commands all to accept His Free Gift in Christ ... each must choose whether to accept or reject it ... I choose to accept it ...

I will not reduce Jesus to Prophet ... He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords ... all things have been placed under His authority by God the Father ...

this revelation only comes from God ...

Matthew 16 KJV

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?"
14 And they said, "Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias (Elijah); and others, Jeremias (Jeremiah), or one of the prophets."
15 He saith unto them, "But Whom say ye that I am?"
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (Peter): for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven."

only the Bible gives us this Truth ...

[Bobby777]

I say this not to insult you but to inform you ... when you come to the Truth, and it is quite powerful when it comes, you will know that Jesus is the Christ and the Perfect Son of God ... until then it will seem as nonsense ... the Apostle Paul says it in the New Testament ...

I didn't recognize Him as God the Son ... I do now (have for about 22 years now) ...

I invite you to sit down and read the Gospel According to John and ask God to reveal the Truth in Christ ... after that, you'll need no convincing from me ...