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Got nuthin' to say. It's all been said.
1 posted on 02/26/2003 7:19:40 AM PST by Nix 2
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Bump for later read...hopefully.
2 posted on 02/26/2003 7:22:04 AM PST by GirlNextDoor
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To: Nix 2
God doesn't change?
Exodus: "thou shalt not murder"
Joshua: "Go, and kill every last one of them, including women and children right down to the newborn" (or words to that effect.

That isn't a fundamental shift in stated policy?
Hoo!
3 posted on 02/26/2003 7:28:46 AM PST by demosthenes the elder (slime will never cease to be slime... why must that be explained to anyone?)
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To: Nix 2
Actually, I can think of an absolute moral standard that could exist without God: Continuation of the species. However, that could open up a whole other can of worms (culling out of the weak, for example).

7 posted on 02/26/2003 7:50:42 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (Haiku and "Unintended Consquences" just don't mix.)
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To: Nix 2
Perhaps there really is a God with an absolute standard of morality. If so, He hasn't deigned to explain them to us in person. We are left with the various moral assertions that humans offer in God's name. These turn out to be every bit as variable, vague, and inconsistent as the moral assertions offered in the name of pragmatism, emotional resonance, political ideology, etc.

Thus, resort to divine moral sanction turns out to be a useless non-resolution of the underlying problem.

13 posted on 02/26/2003 8:26:24 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Leisler
Here's another one for you.
23 posted on 02/26/2003 8:46:37 AM PST by happygrl
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To: Nix 2
If there is an absolute standard of morality, then there must be a God.

Oh, I don't know. There are hundreds of millions of buddhists who might disagree.

28 posted on 02/26/2003 9:03:14 AM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears about the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: Nix 2
everyone needs God, some don't know it.
29 posted on 02/26/2003 9:03:53 AM PST by The Wizard (Demonrats are enemies of America)
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To: Nix 2
Regardless of how they may have come to be there, human beings exist in an objectively real world. Reason (regardless of how it may have been acquired) is man’s only means of discerning that reality. In fact, man’s survival is contingent upon his recognition of reality in objective and absolute terms, and his willingness to act in accordance with the dictates of reality, by choice. Failure to recognize reality and failure to choose one’s actions accordingly, will ultimately end in death. Hence all sane human beings evaluate their world, and form values upon which their choices are predicated.

Each individual rational human being is driven by his own values. Inasmuch as each man may know only the specific workings of his own mind, each individual is uniquely qualified to determine his values, and his alone. No man may claim to accurately represent the mind or the values of another. Hence each man’s values may only be advanced by evaluating the world, forming rational conclusions, and acting for himself.

The free-will choice to act in accordance with one’s own values is recognized by other more traditional names, the most recognizable of which is “the pursuit of happiness”. Whether actions are seemingly motivated by traditional religious pursuits, or by the advancement of family, or friends, or charitable concerns, the pursuit of individual happiness (advancement of one’s own values) is the true motivator. Men seek to please their Gods, or to protect their children, or to help others, because it pleases them to do so.

In order to pursue the rational advancement of their values, individuals must be free to act in accordance with the dictates of their own will. In recognition of the fact that the will of individuals may conflict in advancement of their values, a rational restrictive boundary is created at the intersection of competing wills. This boundary reconciles the potential for conflict, by defining as a right, any action in accordance with the dictates of the will of the individual actor, which does not infringe upon the ability of other individuals to do likewise.

The only means which men have at their disposal to infringe upon the rights of others are initiated force, threat of initiated force, and fraud. Recognition of this truth, provides the foundation of a moral code. Initiated force, threat of initiated force, and fraud, are immoral inasmuch as they act to infringe man’s pursuit of his happiness as he defines it. All initiated force, threat of initiated force, or fraud, are immoral, whether perpetrated by an individual or by a collection of individuals sometimes known as government.

30 posted on 02/26/2003 9:04:13 AM PST by OWK
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To: Nix 2; All
Before we get started, I am a religionist (Catholic), and a moral absolutist, and a student of natural law.

The good rabbi has the tail wagging the dog, as strange as that sounds. God is not required for there to be an absolute standard of right and wrong. All that requires is absolute and inexorable consequences -- or, to put it another way, natural laws that can't be finessed.

Many would argue that this alone conclusively implies the existence of God. I believe in God, but I also recognize the availability of other explanations for the invariability of Natural Law. Indeed, I think that's the way God wants it -- for faith is meaningless if it's provable and incontrovertible.

I call this the Divine Non-Coercion Package. It allows men's minds to be free on the Ultimate Subject, for, without freedom, the election of belief is as morally empty as submission to gravity.

C. S. Lewis does some delightful turns on this in The Screwtape Letters.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason:
http://palaceofreason.com

32 posted on 02/26/2003 9:16:47 AM PST by fporretto (Curmudgeon Emeritus, Palace of Reason)
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To: Nix 2
Morality: Who Needs God?

America certainly doesn't need God! Look how well everything has been going the last decade without Him.

We're in hock for trillions, our industrial base is in China, there are no real jobs left, the Chinese and North Koreans are in position to fire missiles up our collective ass!

Hell, we don't need God.

34 posted on 02/26/2003 9:18:28 AM PST by LuisBasco
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To: Nix 2
Personally, I think that Good and Evil exist as concepts seperate from God. Why? First, if Good and Evil are whatever God wants them to be, that positions God as a tyrant and that's frankly not how I personally experience God. Second, I think it robs God, Himself, of the fundamental choice that every human being has to wrestle with -- whether to be Good or Evil. And it is with this choice that I think Man is created in God's "image". We aren't Good, Evil, or simply Amoral by nature like animals. We have a choice. Do people honestly believe that humans have a capability that God doesn't have?

The understanding that God could be Evil but chooses not to be makes God much more Good, in my eyes, than simply making it a tautology that anything God does is Good. By that thinking, if God were purposely torturing little children or sending Good people to Hell just for the heck of it, that would be "Good". And if you argue that God wouldn't do that because God is Good, that just proves my point. God's options and actions are limited in order to for God to be good, then the definition of Good must be something external to God. Put another way, if God werelike Satan, would you find Him worthy of worship and your love?

36 posted on 02/26/2003 9:25:15 AM PST by Question_Assumptions (``)
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To: Nix 2
Ayn Rand derived absolute morality from man's right to his life without any reference to God.
37 posted on 02/26/2003 9:26:00 AM PST by Barry Goldwater ("Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!")
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To: Nix 2
Without God, all things are possible, and that's a pretty frightening prospect.
38 posted on 02/26/2003 9:29:40 AM PST by P.O.E.
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To: Nix 2
Bump!
40 posted on 02/26/2003 9:36:49 AM PST by k2blader
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To: Barry Goldwater
Excellent counterpoint at:

http://religion.aynrand.org/
46 posted on 02/26/2003 9:42:42 AM PST by Barry Goldwater ("Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!")
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To: Nix 2
Could you do me a favor and tell me the moral code of the God of Abraham?
49 posted on 02/26/2003 9:45:01 AM PST by OWK
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To: Nix 2
Is enslavement of innocents permissable under the moral code of the God of Abraham?

How about the murder of innocents?

Is that permitted?

51 posted on 02/26/2003 9:48:04 AM PST by OWK
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To: Nix 2
"Without God, everything is permitted."

Absolute nonesense............!!

New Gods have come and gone over the past 10,000 years as any historical study for the period will affirm....a mere drop in the time bucket of time since man began walking upright.

On the contrary to this statement, for the past 6,000 years, the argument over which God is the one true God has usually ended civility and been the cause of much inhumanity where any horror has been permitted and encouraged.

Have a nice day.


100 posted on 02/26/2003 10:50:53 AM PST by rmvh
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To: Nix 2
"Without God, everything is permitted."

Absolute nonesense............!!

New Gods have come and gone over the past 10,000 years as any historical study for the period will affirm....a mere drop in the time bucket of time since man began walking upright.

On the contrary to this statement, for the past 6,000 years, the argument over which God is the one true God has usually ended civility and been the cause of much inhumanity where any horror has been permitted and encouraged.

Have a nice day.


102 posted on 02/26/2003 10:51:32 AM PST by rmvh
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To: Nix 2
Morality: Who Needs God?

NObody, I certainly don't need the threat of eternal damnation to be a moral person. Nothing relative about it.

If you need the threat to be a good person, it just shows that you are a weak person without self control.
124 posted on 02/26/2003 11:02:45 AM PST by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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