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1 posted on 02/19/2003 12:07:29 PM PST by mrustow
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FYI
2 posted on 02/19/2003 12:11:40 PM PST by mrustow
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To: mrustow
Numerous ex-soviet officials I've heard interviewed on the topic of the collapse of the USSR beg to differ.
6 posted on 02/19/2003 12:18:19 PM PST by skeeter (Sona si Latine loqueris)
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To: mrustow
Actually it was the policies of Jimmy Carter that opened the pandora's box of Islamofacism. That Islamofacism backed by the obscene Opecker Oil $'s enabled the Islamofacists to buy the PR and war tech from Russia, ChiCom land, France and Germany.

This has to be one of the worst articles I have read recently.
7 posted on 02/19/2003 12:22:05 PM PST by Grampa Dave (Stamp out Freepathons! Stop being a Freep Loader! Become a monthly donor!)
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To: mrustow
History is incalculable. Nevertheless we must act, or be swarmed.

Good article.
8 posted on 02/19/2003 12:22:53 PM PST by headsonpikes
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To: mrustow; belmont_mark; Alamo-Girl; backhoe; rightwing2; kattracks
This Revisionist malarkey deserves a Barf Alert! This guy does not really understand what motivated Gorbachev. Glasnost was a last desperate rally attempt by communism to DEFLECT the siren-call of the West to the oppressed subjects (note we can't call them citizens) of the Soviets. He would have ignored the restiveness of the people if he hadn't been completely foiled by the Reagan buildup to continue the Soviets extortion rackets against the West...which did drain Moscow's coffers. All in a vain effort to keep up...and achieve a level of military superiority that would cow the West into more 'protection racket' deals.

Pure squandry by the disciples of Lenin. And they haven't gone away. Eventually they recognized their failure with a strong, united, and technologically superior West to feel threatened by the communist empire. When it failed, they executed a scheme to take covert charge of the 'popular revolution' and still are pulling strings today. The real engineers of the Fall, manipulated many things to make the fall look spontaneous, and 'natural' but the strings were a little too blatant. Reagan does deserve credit for defending us, getting SDI going under the bitter circumstances of an anti-defense Congress, and forcing the Soviets into this gambit. And for whatever freedoms the spin-off state's citizens now have. The Russians meanwhile are slowly but surely fastening the manacles back in place, as their Press is muzzled and controlled once again.

9 posted on 02/19/2003 12:23:51 PM PST by Paul Ross (From the State Looking Forward to Global Warming! Let's Drown France!)
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To: mrustow
One of my pet peeves is people who say that Gorbachev won the Cold War. Yeah, he won because the country he was leading totally collapsed. Did you know that Hitler won WWII? Yup. His country collapsed too -- Germany was defeated because of Hitler's leadership. He deserves the victory!

Personally, I continue to feel that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher won the Cold War. Gorbachev lost.

10 posted on 02/19/2003 12:25:02 PM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: mrustow
Why do they hate us? It's a simple one word answer. Money. Money and future concessions through backdoor deals that Clinton promised these countries and couldn't deliver through his bagman Al Gore because he lost. Clinton gave these nations whatever he could under the table, but his commitments were too many and spread out at one time. They would have to wait until the next administration to collect. They weren't worried, it was Al Gorp's election to lose. When President Bush won, they were angry. Clinton's promises and obligations were now dust.
11 posted on 02/19/2003 12:28:22 PM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult ("Read Hillary's hips. I never had sex with that woman.")
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To: mrustow
I can remember the day the Berlin Wall fell. heck, I remember the day construction started.

But the day they started tearing it down, I told my wife, we won world war III, but world war IV will be fought in the middle east.

My view of Islam was filtered through the rantings of Yassir Arafat, but I was certain he had a vast hoard behind him, all aimed at Israel.

12 posted on 02/19/2003 12:32:39 PM PST by js1138
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To: mrustow
If my interpretation is correct, liberty arose in Eastern Europe, and chaos elsewhere, as a fluke.

I'd like to borrow a line from my objectivist friends - when your conclusions point to something this unsatisfactory it's time to "check your premises." "Fluke," after all, is merely a term for something you cannot explain. Liberty in Eastern Europe is not a fluke, it was an ideal tenderly preserved through times of outrageous oppression, nurtured carefully by its adherents on both sides of the Iron Curtain, and allowed to flower in the muck that was the chaos of post-Gorbachev Europe. The conditions that led to this chaos were legion, with more causes and actors than will ever be known, much less listed here. But the goal was always there, and reaching it was not by accident.

Reagan deserves credit for inspiration if for nothing else. His principal function was not to spend the Soviet Union into extinction, it was to raise morale and to remind us that the ideals that had been deliberately marginalized and dismissed during the practiced cynicism of the Carter years were, in fact, real, and their proponents sincere, and most of all, that they were attainable. It is that last that socialism and its proponents have never been able to offer, attainability, and they have, by way of compensation, substituted a contrived world-weariness that held that because their ideals were unattainable all ideals were so, that because their ideals were merely buttons to push to manipulate a desired mass reaction, that all ideals were that as well. It was Reagan who reminded us that this was not the case. He meant it, and between us all, East and West, we proved him right.

15 posted on 02/19/2003 12:41:19 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: mrustow
This guy is sick! He waxes nostalgic for the old Soviet Empire that allowed him to stay in a 5 star hotel in Budapest at Motel 6 prices. What a selfish, shallow man. The problems we face with Islam today, existed during the Cold War. There were Islamic terrorists during the 70s, all funded by the Soviets. 9/11 did not result because of the restraining influence of the Soviets. The escalation of Islamic terrorism to 9/11 is directly attributable to the inept foreign policy of Bill Clinton, who continually threatened the terrorists, but either failed to follow through or acted cowardly as in Somalia. Bush now has to clean up the mess.
16 posted on 02/19/2003 12:43:02 PM PST by Pres Raygun
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To: mrustow
This is certainly a different slant on subject.
20 posted on 02/19/2003 12:47:48 PM PST by B4Ranch (Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant.)
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To: mrustow
>>>It was Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev that caused The Wall to fall...

Horseshit.

21 posted on 02/19/2003 12:52:42 PM PST by Reagan Man
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To: mrustow
If there were those in the West who hadn’t heard about Lithuania before, they almost certainly had by the end of the day, January 13, 1991. That was the day Soviet troops cracked down in Vilnius and the resulting bloodshed made headlines around the world. The action was apparently a bid to stop Lithuania’s independence drive in its tracks. By the time the firing stopped and the smoke cleared, more than a dozen people lay dead, and hundreds more were injured.

_____

On the eve of the killings, on January 12, there was a deceptive calmness in the air. There was confusion. We knew Lithuania was on the agenda in Moscow and that Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev was sending a special delegation to Vilnius. Because the situation was so tense, I spoke several times with the chairman of that delegation on the 12th, urging him to come directly to the Lithuanian capital. But he said he had to go to neighboring Belarus, and that he would spend the night there. I called him again and again to try to persuade him to come straight to Vilnius. But because they didn’t want to be in Vilnius that evening, I felt something was wrong. There was a similar situation in Tbilisi, Georgia in 1989, when unarmed people were massacred by Soviet troops at night. Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze stayed in Moscow on the eve of the massacre, and it was said that there was no need for him to go to Tbilisi. The situation in Vilnius was very similar. When the Soviet delegation didn’t agree to come to Vilnius, I was very worried.
       That evening, I decided to go home. I wanted to take a bath after being at Parliament for so many days. But when I got home, information came in that the gates were thrown open at Soviet barracks and the tanks were preparing to move. I got home at around midnight, but went back to parliament immediately.
       By then, it was clear tanks were moving. You could hear the roar of the tanks. But for a while, we didn’t know what their target was. Then, from inside Parliament, we could hear the shooting of machine guns and tanks, and we could see the gunfire in the night sky.

--Vytautas Lansbergis, President of Lithuania

Source


23 posted on 02/19/2003 12:59:41 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: mrustow
If my interpretation is correct, liberty arose in Eastern Europe, and chaos elsewhere, as a fluke.

Not a fluke at all. Credit Gerry Ford for the Helsinki Accords that held the Soviets and their satellites to a bare minimum of respect for basic human rights in exchange for desperately needed western trade. While Carter preached ad nasium about human rights, he never understood how to leverage Helsinki or how to stand up to a bully. (I bet he got his butt beat a lot in grade school) Reagan did understand. He beat the Russians over the head with Helsinki and forced them to try to create "Communism with a human face" -- i.e. Gorby. The rest of the analysis is sort of on the mark, but it was Helsinki that created Gorby and using Helsinki as a lever, Reagan broke the back of the Soviet power structure simply by forcing them to quit killing their own people. As to chaos elsewhere, I'd note that in the absence of a Godfather, (the Kremlin), the little gangsters like Saddam will go off in all directions and do their own thing.

27 posted on 02/19/2003 1:09:53 PM PST by Ditto (You are free to form your own opinions, but not your own facts.)
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To: mrustow
If the conventional wisdom in the U.S. is correct, and Ronald Reagan's arms buildup caused the collapse of the Soviet Union, then Reagan must get both the credit and the blame for today's world order, or lack thereof. With all due respect, however, I don't think he deserves either.

HUH?!?

31 posted on 02/19/2003 1:17:35 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: mrustow
Gorbachev was a tyrant who stopped tyrannizing.

Horsehockey!!!! Tell that to the 13 he slaughtered in Vilnius in 1991.

32 posted on 02/19/2003 1:21:32 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: mrustow
It was the fall of the Soviet Union that opened the Pandora's Box of Islam, and led directly to today's world, in which America finds herself beset by enemies, particularly Islamic terrorists. As the saying goes, be careful what you pray for, because your prayers just might be answered.

America was a target of Islamofacists before the fall of the Soviet Union. Remember Libya and Lebanon? Remember Carter and the fall of the Shaw of Iran? And Ayatolla Komeini? America is a target because we are Christian, because we have sympathy for the Jews, and because the Islamofacists must have a bad guy external to their country to unify their people.

It is true that the people of the Soviet Union brought down the Soviet Union. But Reagan deserves a lot of credit. He insisted on calling a spade a spade and made clear to the world that he considered their system of government to be evil. Reagan spoke at Moscow University about basic human rights. He stood at the Berlin wall and shamed Gorbachev into tearing it down. And in his commitment to make sure America was able to defend itself, he did increase the economic burden on the Soviets. Yes it took people within the Soviet Union to listen, to allow those external events to even make news and be discussed inside the Soviet Union, and to eventually stand up and insist on democracy. But to completely say Reagan had no impact, is to ignore history.

34 posted on 02/19/2003 1:27:08 PM PST by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: mrustow
Over the past 2000 or so years, there has been one nation founded in the idea that all people are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To believe that the tyranny of Communism collapsed independent of the efforts of that nation is absurd.

Yes, Gorbachev had a hand in it. Most importantly, he refrained from killing thousands, maybe millions, as the house of cards tumbled. But credit must be given where credit is due: the United States, and its leaders, caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. And among those leaders, I believe Reagan was the most influential.
37 posted on 02/19/2003 1:47:50 PM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: mrustow
What slimy liberal rock did this confused idiot crawl out from under??
40 posted on 02/19/2003 2:11:31 PM PST by Porterville
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To: mrustow
"I am going to totally dismantle every intelligence agency in this country piece by piece, nail by nail, brick by brick..." - Ron Dellums (D-CA)Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, 1993

Republicans should be flashing the twin towers explosion in the backround with this quote superimposed in campaign ads when they attack their opponents.

41 posted on 02/19/2003 2:23:38 PM PST by weikel ( Ad space here rates are reasonable)
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