Back from the Grave: Familiar stories in Croatia

NRO ^ | 2/7/2003 | Jeffrey T. Kuhner

[wonders]

My suggestion is that Serbs and Croatians set aside their differences by concentrating on common foreign policy vis a vis Bosnia through their proxy forces there.

As you know, Franjo and Slobo already tried that one. Powers that be didn't allow it. Now they've installed more compliant regimes. Try talking to the handlers if you want to change things rather than ponticifating to Croats and Serbs.

Another thing Wonk, the Croats have thrown their lot in with Germany, did so long ago. Serbs aren't so keen to join up. Germany has been playing a very interesting game over the past fifteen years or so.

Agree on partition.

[joan]

Well, the question is, did those Serbs who went to RS stay there, or return after the bombing was over?

I just remember reading that a family from Novi Sad went to Banja Luka either during or shortly after NATO bombing, and they said they never wanted to go back. I wondered about that at the time - about why they wouldn't want to go back - but perhaps they wanted to leave the trauma behind, or they were in shock.

As for Croatian Serbs trying to return to their homes in Croatia, I'm not doubting you at all, but two questions: (1) How did they get there? NATO bombed the only remaining bridge between the FRY and Croatia, the Backa Palanka bridge, so they would have had to go up and around through Hungary to get there.

They could go through Bosnia, then to Croatia. I also remember a Truth in Media story about a Roma and his family who were cleansed from Kosovo the Summer of 1999. After being cleansed, he made his way to Rijeka, Croatia where he had relatives. So, people were able to make it to Croatia, and I don't think they had to necessarily travel through Hungary first.

[joan]

This is the story I mentioned. I excerpt bits of Dzemail Zeinulah's testimony (which was reported July 26, 1999 from Rijeka, Croatia) to show his course from Kosovo to there. Hungary isn't mentioned at all.:

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Kosovo/Peace/ps22.html

"I guess you’ve heard of the Mahala in Kosovska Mitrovica. That’s our community...

There we stood on the other side of the Ibar River and saw it all with our own eyes; clouds of smoke rising, all our sweat burning up in flames... more than one thousand five hundred homes... We stood there silent and still, more than six thousand of us Romanies watching our lives expire.

As for us, we scattered anywhere we could... A couple thousand ended up at Zvecara in Kosovo where they were placed in a camp together with the Serbs… We went on foot in the direction of Novi Pazar (a town in southwest Serbia). Nothing to carry, but the voyage is tedious. My wife, two sons, a daughter-in-law and me…

Foreign politicians say NATO will form a militia made up of Albanians, the KLA members. The very same ones who plundered us, burned our homes and drove us away will protect us. From whom? I see, evil is spreading and so we decide on Sarajevo. We stayed there with some kinfolk for a short time. We see things are pretty tough here, too. Our kinfolk paid our way to Croatia, which we crossed over into illegally."

So, this is how he traveled: Kosovska Mitrovica, Kosovo --> Zvecara, Kosovo --> Novi Pazar, Serbia --> Sarajevo --> Croatia

[Tamodaleko]

Disagree with partition.
Still prefer Serbs to implement in K&M: US policy w/illegal immigrants, Rumsfeld's policy w/war against terrorism and Bush's policy of taking down the regime (in this case installed by the UN) that is an immediate threat to nation's security.

[branicap]

Wonders,there is no problem in geting to Croatia from Serbia>None at all.Take a look at the map:the bridge that you have mentioned was bombed,slightly damaged but not destroyed!But,that bridge conects Vojvodina with Western Slavonia.You can drive strait from Belgrade to Zagreb using the highway (coridor X)which is now opened.So ,infrastructure(roads,raiway) is there,undamaged.

But,for the refugees, there is a visa problem.

[wonders]

The reason I said Hungary was because I read that the NATO troops in Bosnia had orders not to let Serbs from Serbia through the border during the bombing. Maybe that was incorrect. Even if true, I'm sure some still got in, though. I'm also sure UNHCR and other refugee agencies were clearing the way for refugees from Kosovo during and after the bombing. People who left Kosovo and went to third countries wouldn't affect the census figures as we're not including the population of Kosovo.

As for why the family from Novi Sad didn't want to go back... maybe because Novi Sad and got bombed real good. Main targets in Novi Sad were the oil refinery (bombed repeatedly), the bridges and the TV station. The power plant was also bombed (target) and a residential area was hit (NATO called this an error). All the bridges were bombed along with the water pipes which carried water across the bridges, so the water supply was knocked out. Maybe their home was one of the ones bombed, or maybe all the smoke from the bombed refinery plus no water, no power, no bridges did the trick.

[joan]

But even if all ways from Serbia direct to Croatia were severed, one could go to Bosnia and then to Croatia. Also they could go to Montenegro then on to Croatia, right?

And I forgot to say, that the family from Novi Sad that went to stay in Banja Luka had had their house bombed by NATO.

[joan]

"The reason I said Hungary was because I read that the NATO troops in Bosnia had orders not to let Serbs from Serbia through the border during the bombing. Maybe that was incorrect."

Yeah, but if were talking about a recent census conducted in Serbia, there were about 3 years after the bombing that Serbs could have tried to go back. About not letting Serbs into Bosnia - I heard that the Russians serving in Bosnia guarded a particular bridge from there to Serbia to prevent it from being bombed. I don't know if it was true that the Russians did that, but if it was, I'm sure they'd let Serbs across.

[wonders]

Oh, glad to hear the old Backa bridge didn't get it too bad. I used to drive over it and loved it for some reason. I could never understand how that bridge could have been considered a legitimate military target by NATO.

[branicap]

As Kosta said,"no ,you didn`t get it"!

And,your post is the proof of your own stupidity:first you lecture me that "nothing is black or white" (Eureka!) and than you post that Croats are this and Serbs are that?

Where did you find that kind of thinking in my or Kosta`s posts?We both tried to "correspond" with you in nice and factual manner.In return we got insults and cheap psychoanalysis!If I need a shrink I know where to find one,thank you very much!

And,you didn`t answer on any of my remarks in my previous posts?Of course not.

And,official line on this forum is that some people provide a lot of usefull information and facts and they remain here for some time!

Despite many obstacles and prejudices,FR Balkan threads had achieved succes in providing an alternative and true insight in Balkan problems,history,politics...As far as I am concerned,that succes is measured in number of private replies from people in US,Canada,Australia,and Europe who want to know more or want help and advice about Balkans for their private or professionas purposes!And,I know for sure that some other posters are in great demand.

So called "snipers" like you ,unable to post a coherent story or essay about subject usually don`t last long,sorry!Nothing to contribute,appart from snide remarks,simplistic "solutions",superior and arogant attitude(based on etnicity,I guess)not on knowlege or merit...I don`t care about Kosovo or geting it back and I am anything but delusional!You don`t even know what that term mean,son!But,you read it somewhere and it sounds nice,so you like using it.

And,yes,you will be seing me,FPWank!

[wonders]

Well, as the chunk of Kosovo which would be lost to Serbia as a result of partition is an economic black hole, partition, at a least a temporary solution, has its advantages. Kosovo has always been an economic parasite, probably always will be. Letting the "international community" foot the bill for as long as they're willing is also to Serbia's advantage. Um, the UN didn't install any regime. NATO installed it under cover of the UN.

[wonders]

Well, if residents of Serbia left for BiH during or after the bombing and stayed there, they wouldn't be counted in the census -- or would they, if they retained Serbian citizenship? Hmm. Maybe Kosta knows.

If they were refugees from BiH or Croatia who went back home, then they wouldn't be counted either, I suppose. That's why I used the UNHCR December 2001 figures to estimate the number of refugees still inside Serbia.

Maybe I'm missing your point about the census and not understanding something.

[joan]

"Well, if residents of Serbia left for BiH during or after the bombing and stayed there, they wouldn't be counted in the census -- or would they, if they retained Serbian citizenship? Hmm. Maybe Kosta knows."

Yes, lets ask kosta50. Because those Croats that left Serbia, wasn't it around 20,000? - they would still be citizens too, right? I never heard of Serbia taking the citizenship from ethnic Croats or anyone, have you? So, I think the census probably reflects who is there, or lives there for a certain number of months in the year.

Maybe they would lose citizenship if they became citizens of certain other countries that don't allow dual citizenship.

[branicap]

Hello Ladies!

That was quick!Are we on line right now?Hope that you`re both well!

Yes,strange decision to bomb that bridge because,in military sense it leads to" nowhere!"

I mean,if the excuse to bomb bridges in Novi Sad was to "prevent movement of the troops from Vojvodina to Kosovo" eventual destruction on that particular Danube bridge would "prevent movement of troops from Croatia to Vojvodina and vice versa"!LOL!

About Kosovo:one minor State Department official had mentioned an interesting idea :USA should pay $2,5 bilion to Serbia in exchange for Serbian approval of Kosovo indenpendence!

Happened a few days ago,I believe on some meeting in Athens.

The reply form some Serbian politicians was:"Kosovo is not Alaska and is not for sale!"

I believe that it is,but the price is to low!

I don`t want to sound traitorous but,in all honesty,I have been thinking that Kosovo was lost for ever for the last 20 years.Rison being,that Serbs were talking about the problem for decades but,in reality,didn`t stand up for their Serbian compatriots living there.Quite uncontrary,Serbian Communist authorities had done everything in their power to shut them up and to apease Albanians,for the sake of personal gain!

Albanians ,in the other hand,have had their national program and agenda(Grater Albania) and they will get it,sooner or later!

Somebody in Serbia has to make a dificult decision and amputate that gangrenous "tissue" for the sake of the "whole body"!It will be painfull,but necesary,and here it is why:

Despite the fact that Kosovo is the oldest part of Serbian State and nation "Who owns the sheep owns the pasture!"And,Albanians outnumber Serbs today 15-20:1 in Kosovo.Sooner or later,remaining Serbs(and others) will be eather killed or so brutilised that they will have to leave!

Serbia ,today,is living under ridiculous diktat:Serbia is paying $500 milion of Kosovo debts while UNMIK is selling Serbian property and pocketing the money???Let me remind you that last week one auction for the one Serbian restaurant was canceled because US Embassy in Belgrade had filled a protest on behalf of US citizen from San Francisco(Serbian-American).He is the owner of that restaurant which was taken away from his family by communists!

So,if a property belongs to the American citizen than Enbassy intervienes:private property is sacred,right!?

But,when you occupy part of foreign country than you are allowed to sell that country`s property and charge the very same country for it???

Kosovo should be given away,provideing that Serbia is compensated for the lost property.Remaining Serbian population should be assisted financialy to resettle in Serbia.Security of Serbian religious sites should be guaranteed by UN!

And,some borders should be changed.

That is the only way!

Otherwise,more instability,blood,getos for Serbs,drain on Serbia...

Serbs left Krajina,and they had survived...large number of them was expeled from Kosovo during WWII,resettled in Serbia and...survived!

Let Albanians take care of themselfs!Let them learn to pay taxes(for the first time).Let them invest their own money in infrastructure,schools,hospitals...let them live without donations(very near future)!

Than,they will try to partition Macedonia!

[Gael]

kosta50; Gael

Hello Ladies!

Ahem.

Re Kosovo, what goes around comes around. The other side was flying high in 1943, just as it seems to be today. The Franco-German/US rift in NATO may signal that the wheel is already starting to turn.

[joan]

Serbia ,today,is living under ridiculous diktat:Serbia is paying $500 milion of Kosovo debts

I had thought Serbia was refusing to pay the Kosovo part of debt because they could no longer collect taxes from there.

Albanians take care of themselfs!Let them learn to pay taxes(for the first time).Let them invest their own money in infrastructure,schools,hospitals...let them live without donations(very near future)!

Apparently Kosovo is not good enough to stay in anymore - even though it's practically Serb free. The news agency, KosovaLive says that 56.2% want to go abroad to live and work, while only 43.8% want to stay. If this persists, then the Albanian population in Kosovo may start to shrink...? Also, if and when the US and EU cut back on donations to Kosovo and numbers of troops and UN personnel are drawn down, there will probably be even less money coming into Kosovo, which may lead to even more pressure for Albanians to emigrate from Kosovo.

Option to Migrate on the Minds of Kosovars Again:

PRISHTINA (KosovaLive) - Over half of surveyed Kosovans stated that they want to go abroad to work and live. The reasons they cite are the power cuts, water supply shortages, unemployment and disappointment with recent developments in Kosova.

[Tamodaleko]

Wonders, thanks for pinpointing NATO. Of course, we can go further than that... why stop and generalize with NATO. Partition may make sense to pragmatists, re: K&M it doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t recommend, but I do prefer #84.

Dr. Brane, you implement the 3 policies of #84... takes care of the future imbalance.

[branicap]

Hello Ladies!

Ahem!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

Sorry,Gael and Kosta LOOOOOOOOOOOL

I was surprised that "Ladies" replied on my post within 5 minutes,so ,I started my post,adressing them two.

And then,added you two ,as a mater of habit.

Thank`s for the laugh,Gael!

Don`t get offended,we all have a "feminine side"!LOOOOL

[branicap]

Tamo, I agree with you wholeheartedly!My idea about "sale" of Kosovo is,basicaly,reinterpretation of one author from Belgrade,published in the Belgrade`s weekly NIN two weeks ago.We can discuss it some other time.

Joan,last week British Government had introduced new anti-asylum measures.Seven countries were added to the list of countries whose citizens will be automaticaly refused asylum in UK.

Yugoslavia(Serbia&Montenegro) is on the list!!!

Why?

Because,number of Albanians coming to UK and claiming asylum is on the increase!But,oh God,world is a funny place,this time,Albanians are claiming that "if they go back to Kosovo they will be killed by their Albanian countrymen for colaborating with Miloshevich regime!!!"

Thousands of them!The same situation and explanation is in Germany and Austria!

[wonders]

I understand Serbs wanting to keep all of Kosovo out of a sense of sovreignity and history and cultural heritage and all those noble sentiments. If the people of Serbia want to keep it badly enough to chuck their tax money into that black hole for all eternity, then fine, it's their business. If they'd rather let the Albanians have their miserable little plot in the south and live there in poverty and crime (with UNESCO protecting their cultural and religious monuments there) while Serbia kept the northern part, fine.

Ref the three points in #84:

1. US policy w/illegal immigrants You mean give them amnesty and citizenship and welfare so they can vote Democrat? No, seriously, my answer to that one is "requires second point".

2. Rumsfeld's policy w/war against terrorism Tried it, got 'em bombed by NATO.

3. Bush's policy of taking down the regime Again, requires second point.