This Bus Goes Nowhere (A Rational Look at the Shuttle)

Thank you! Good Thread!

I was understating: this is a GREAT thread!

Where, oh where would one ever get this kind of breadth and depth on any opinion or article. There's nothing on earth better than FR.

Thanks, all you learned, opinionated ones, for participating.

We aren't ever going to agree. You look at government and see one thing. I look at the same thing and see exactly the opposite for example, you say

You on a municipal line for water or power? Likelihood very good government money helped build those faclities.

You see something that helps quality of life. I see tax dollars taken and spent wastefully for something that private industry could do better (an example is Atlanta - a corrupt African People's Democracy if ever there was one) Even in Atlanta privatization of the water system is saving $8,000,000 a year.

Another example - you say

The fact you can buy private property and be reasonably sure that it won't be taken away by some schyster with a fake deed is because of government

You see protection of private property. I see the property tax system that ensures that if you don't pay an annual bribe to the county/state your property will be taken away by some schyster with a real deed. And so it goes.

I don't think I will ever convince you, and I know you won't convince me.

Private industry saves 8MM a year operating the infrastructure vs the government equivalent.. I can believe that... what you ignore though, is where was the private industry when that water system was needed so that Atlanta could grow and be a safer place? Were they finding the money to build that infrastructure privately ? Hell no, THEY NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!

The system that keeps track of your deed and property btw is a neccessary function if you want private property... I suppose you would prefer a communist state? You can deride government all day long, fact is, even though you don't want to recognize or appreciate it, the government you hate so much allows you a life that most on this planet will never see. That's the beauty of america... you can be ignorant of what you have and still be free to rant.

BVW,

I recalled reading somewhere years ago, Intel was funded in its growth and research by a joint private/government parntership.. will have to see if I can find the article again... I may be wrong... of course if you take it all the way back, computing begins with British government funding of Lovelace and Touring if I am not mistaken.

An opportunity lost (QuickTime movie)

All right let's show your ignorance. Typically infrastructure improvements are financed through bonds. This is PRIVATE money being loaned to government at a sweetheart interest rate that government cuts for itself by making the interest tax exempt (unless of course you qualify for the AMT, but that's another subject). There is no reason that a private company couldn't do exactly the same thing, and wouldn't have to finance all of the exotic vacations and big tacket expense items that the government bureaucrats treat themselves to at our expense. Oddly enough private property existed long before county records offices came into being.

the government you hate so much allows you a life that most on this planet will never see.

Utter horse sh!t. I don't so much deride government as hold its venal plundering pompous bureaucrats who feel self qualified to run everyone's life in utter contemp. Government pillages far more today than it did ever before in the history of the country including WWII, and to what effect? Vast wealth transfer programs like NASA like the ethanol fuel garbage, like the $15billion for African AIDS. The list is endless. None of these things enhances the quality of life for anyone except those who draw big fat paychecks from or sell inflated goods and services to the government. Every penny taxed away to be spent foolishly by bureaucrats is a penny lost to what the taxpayer really wanted.

Pierre Proudhon said it quite well:

"To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished."

I wich I'd thought of it first, but obviously the problem has been around a long time.

Check these babies out.

I mostly agree with you; but I think government funding of certain research is necessary and proper when the fruits of that federally-funded research redounds to the benefit of National Defense, or other constitutional duties with which our federal government has been charged.

A prosperous nation that wishes to be protected from aggression MUST advance the technology of warfare, or be vulnerable to injury and conquest.

And, as to public works projects, if the government has to build it, most likely not everyone wants it. In a free society, there is no obsticle to prevent those who will benefit from this or that project, from likewise funding it. (To believe that no visionaries could exist outside of government is vile hubris. If there is profit in a thing, it will be accomplished.) Successfully lobbying government to become the financier of such things increases the benefit to the developers unnaturally, and forces all to pay for the wealth and convenience of some. (If a group wishes a road to be built, they must pay market value for the right-of-way; the government can "take" it) The folks who could do without are forced to pay for them that have want. That ain't right.

I think there is some discrimination required in the screed...both ways; key words: necessary, proper.

Coulda woulda shoulda, but DIDN'T(a)... Again, where are those private companies? Nowhere.... no one is arguing they COULD be doing those things, the reality that you choose to keep ignoring is the DON'T AND AREN'T. Anything "COULD" happen, but this isn't the world of pixie dust and faries... and reality is, it DOESN'T happen. Who's out there doing the improvement? Sure isn't the private sector, sure they could take out loans and do it, but guess what, they won't, and don't... living in the world of COULDA won't get you far.

Your counter to the records offices is an interesting take, so you are suggesting that county recording offices just came about for the sake of taxing low citizen, and bilking him... not, as history shows, out of a need to protect the private landholder from false claims against his deed? I see, so the entire system is nothing more than a scam to get your property taxes out of you... it doesn't do a damned thing to help society at all... man you are one really angry person... Government law historically occur out of need, not out of desire... is their pork? SUre, always has been always will be... same is true in private industry... or did you miss that little Worldcom, Enron, Global Crossing, dot bomb little chaos not long ago?

Don't want to believe me? Look for example right now at the movie industry... they are caught time and again marketing adult material to kids.... they promise not to do it again, make up some voluntary system they follow for a while, then ignore when the heats off, heat returns they do it again.. currently we are in about the 3rd or 4th round of this cycle... eventually because the industry won't self govern, laws will happen... not because government says, hey we like passing laws, but because repeated attempts to let private industry do what is right, have failed.

It is obvious you loathe government, and that is your choice. As to vast utter wealth transfers, I hardly consider a program such as NASA that consumes less than 1.5% of the annual budget as some huge wealth redistribution, especially considering that the government takes in far far far more than that from sources other than your income tax. You rant against the 15B Aids plan over the next what 5 years? In budget terms you are talking less than 1-2% annually... again revenues are far more than that from sources other than income tax... you wish to pick a redistribution policy, pick something better to rant against.

None of these things enhances the quality of life for anyone

Few million people suffering from a horrid disease who would argue it does enhance their quality of life... I suppose if you are poor black person from Africa, you obviously aren't "ANYONE" in your mind... glad to see you put your cards openly on the table. So you just stay in your little world.

Actually I agree that military R&D is constitutionally valid.

The international space station is in orbit at about 250 miles above the earth. Depending on weight of payload the shuttle has a limit of about 400 miles. Geostationary orbit is 23,000 miles and is the orbit used by stationary communications sats.

Ther lift capacity of the shuttle is less than 1/5th that of the now defunct Appolo Rocket for Low Earth Orbit.

BTTT

2 lost missions to mars

Mars is a tough one. 62% of the probes sent so far have failed utterly. 38% have sent at least a mouse-squeek of data, and a handful of those have worked splendidly.

I need to add a class of people with whom it is impossible to have a rational discussion. Along with Democrats, gun haters and creationists I need to add fanatical statists such as yourself

Who's out there doing the improvement

United Water runs municipal water systems over the entire US for considerably less than the local graberments do.

Corporate electric companies build their own transmission and generation facilities paid for by ther stock and bond holders. Your statement that the transmission lines are paid for by government is total and absolute fabrication on your part. TVA is government run, but it is the most mismanaged electrical system in the USA. Its rates are the highest for any that have similar generation mix and its nuclear plants are a safety nightmare (Ever heard of Browns Ferry?)

so you are suggesting that county recording offices just came about for the sake of taxing low citizen, and bilking him.

Yes. Absolutely. County records offices are for the purpose of registering real property for taxation. Just like auto registration is for the purpose of taxation. Both exist primarily to ensure that nothing tangible escapes the tax man's greedy grasp. They are government inventories of assets that the government shears annually. Your statement

not, as history shows, out of a need to protect the private landholder from false claims against his deed?

Is nothing but statist propaganda without any basis in reality. History shows no such thing.

Likewise your statement "Government law historically occur out of need, not out of desire" Is nothing but moonbeams. Government rose out of plunder and conquest. The history of government was and is nothing but a Darwininan struggle with the strongest group subjugating and looting the assests of those unable to resist. This is what goes on today in Kongress with the top 5% earners paying 37% of the income taxes.

I love it when you statists turn to personal attacks "... man you are one really angry person... " This comes right from the liberal play book. I believe it is on page two just after "but it's for the children" It says "When they point out how the system screws people call them angry."

...Worldcom, Enron, Global Crossing ...

This is totally irrelevant. No one forces you at gunpoint to buy the products or services of these companies. You have no choice about paying for government "services" whether or not you use them - nice racket.

You rant against the 15B Aids plan over the next what 5 years? In budget terms you are talking less than 1-2% annually

I see, because it isn't a whole lot it's OK. If we follow your "logic" Then we can conclude it's OK to steal as long as you don't take more than a few percent of a person's assets. I find it hard to believe that you actually consider yourself a conservative with these ideas. Of couse people like McCain and Chaffee probably consider themselves conservatives too.

I've long since concluded that discourse with you is a waste of my time. You refuse to acknowledge to obvious and come up with the standard liberal justifications for wealth transfer. Snoore - you're boring me.

You need to add another group to your list, those are people whos view of reality is so skewed by they believe the entire world is out to get them, or like yourself are paranoid.

You claim that government grew out of a desire to subjugate is so patently rediculous that it would be comical if you truly didn't believe it. The earliest forms of government known were tribe, their chiefs and counsils, not dictatorships and totatlitarianisms. Their goals were not subjugation of their family, but the further survival of it... but of course your cracked view of the world will never allow this to be accepted.

Private property and contract law are two of the most fundamental concepts neccessary for a free society, yet you believe the instruments of law that support the defense of those rights are nothing more than scams to get a few bucks from you. Pathetic.

Have you ever dealt with a deed or title issue on your property? I have, and I can tell you right now, without that "scam" as you want to call it, private property could not effectively exist... anyone with a piece of paper and an axe to grind could lay claim to your land... But of course, heaven forbid something government does is useful.

You can keep labeling me names, and thats fine, you are completely dillusional and blinded by ideology, so labeling those that aren't is the last defense of the weak argument.

As to your attempt to counter laws come more often then not out of neccessity, you really didn't counter it... you didn't even acknowledge the example given... which of course you can't because your ideological ignorance forces you to ignore facts. Labor laws grew out of need, not out of a mad grab for power... THe laws that will force the movie industry to stop marketing adult material to kids will come out of need not desire... how many attempts at self regulation were given? THe food safety laws that let you eat prepared foods without likelihood of death came out of need, not desire... and the "private" industry other than a few exceptions such as Heinz fought it tooth and nail.. because what's a few thousand deaths a year when measured against profits? The laws didn't come out of desire to rule, but out of inability of the private industries to self regulate... You are in complete dreamland when you make copious and patently ignorant statements about how government does no good, is all about screwing you and should do nothing but fight wars.

I love private industry, I have made a very good living off of it. I have seen the system work, I have been rewarded for helping bring new products to the marketplace, but don't dillude yourself for one minute into think the profit motive always results in a proper outcome. ENRON et al are perfect examples of this, though you can whine you don't have to buy their products... fact is, yea lots of people were FORCED into buying ENRON's products... they artificially played with the wholesale price of electricity and their meddling was forced upon nearly every consumer in the country... so, please get off your private industry high horse. Private industry is subject to the same greed, corruption and self serving as the power mad beaurocrat.

Your assumption that Private industry will do what is right and provide a just outcome without oversight is flat out ludicrous. Go look at some of the countries of the world where few or little laws mandate corporate behaviors... you want to see a mess, you will find them in spades... but of course since private industry can do no wrong, and private industry is god to you... you I am sure will rationalize the death, harm and anguish they provide, after all private industry is the holy grail, and government is the devil.

I hate to break this to you, but you really aren't that important. I know, you can't believe it, but the government really could give a flying hoot about you... its not in existance to get ya... though obviously you believe they are... because, and I know this is hard to believe, but if they did want to get ya.. you would no longer be verticle. Get over your self dillusional state.

ANd as to my comments on the budget, you missed the point entirely. Your arguements are cenetered around the fact that government is funded by your income tax.. reality is, government has many streams of income, not all of them come from income tax. Personally I want the income tax gone, not only from the ideological standpoint of its immoral, because I believe it is, but just as importantly to shut up the whining self absorbed groups that always scream "MY MONEY SHOULDN"T BE USED FOR xxx".... Get away from an income tax, and you solve both problems... then government can focus on doing what it needs to be done without all these paranoid schizos ranting and raving every time something is done.