Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Observation on TPS damage on Orbiter
NASA photos | 2-3-03 | BoneMccoy

Posted on 02/04/2003 1:34:19 AM PST by bonesmccoy

In recent days the popular media has been focusing their attention on an impact event during the launch of STS-107. The impact of External Tank insulation and/or ice with the Orbiter during ascent was initially judged by NASA to be unlikely to cause loss of the vehicle. Obviously, loss of the integrity of the orbiter Thermal Protection System occured in some manner. When Freepers posted the reports of these impacts on the site, I initially discounted the hypothesis. Orbiters had sustained multiple impacts in the past. However, the size of the plume in the last photo gives me pause.

I'd like to offer to FR a few observations on the photos.

1. In this image an object approximately 2-3 feet appears to be between the orbiter and the ET.

2. In this image the object appears to have rotated relative to both the camera and the orbiter. The change in image luminosity could also be due to a change in reflected light from the object. Nevertheless, it suggests that the object is tumbling and nearing the orbiter's leading edge.

It occurs to me that one may be able to estimate the size of the object and make an educated guess regarding the possible mass of the object. Using the data in the video, one can calculate the relative velocity of the object to the orbiter wing. Creating a test scenario is then possible. One can manufacture a test article and fire ET insulation at the right velocity to evaluate impact damage on the test article.

OV-101's port wing could be used as a test stand with RCC and tile attached to mimic the OV-102 design.

The color of the object seems inconsistent with ET insulation. One can judge the ET color by looking at the ET in the still frame. The color of the object seems more consistent with ice or ice covered ET insulation. Even when accounting for variant color hue/saturation in the video, the object clearly has a different color characteristic from ET insulation. If it is ice laden insulation, the mass of the object would be significantly different from ET insulation alone. Since the velocity of the object is constant in a comparison equation, estimating the mass of the object becomes paramount to understanding the kinetic energy involved in the impact with the TPS.

3. In this image the debris impact creates a plume. My observation is that if the plume was composed primarily of ET insulation, the plume should have the color characteristics of ET insulation. This plume has a white color.

Unfortunately, ET insulation is orange/brown in color.

In addition, if the relative density of the ET insulation is known, one can quantify the colorimetric properties of the plume to disintegrating ET insulation upon impact.

Using the test article experiment model, engineers should fire at the same velocity an estimated mass of ET insulation (similar to the object seen in the still frame) at the test article. The plume should be measured colorimetrically. By comparing this experimental plume to the photographic evidence from the launch, one may be able to quantify the amount of ET insulation in the photograph above.

4. In this photo, the plume spreads from the aft of the orbiter's port wing. This plume does not appear to be the color of ET insulation. It appears to be white.

This white color could be the color of ice particles at high altitude.

On the other hand, the composition of TPS tiles under the orbiter wings is primarily a low-density silica.

In the photo above, you can see a cross section of orbiter TPS tile. The black color of the tile is merely a coating. The interior of the tile is a white, low-density, silica ceramic.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: columbiaaccident; nasa; shuttle; sts; sts107
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,841-2,8602,861-2,8802,881-2,900 ... 4,541-4,548 next last
To: John Jamieson
Sounds like the RCC "unzipped" starting right at the front Panel #1.

Has anyone found out what kinds of modifications were done to the RCC system at Palmdale?

Frankly, I'm amazed at the lack of interest here about what was done there.

Having some knowledge of troubleshooting, the first thing you should look at when something goes wrong is what you just changed.

It would seem that if the leading edge system was modified in some unknown (to me) way in 2000, and failed (in some unknown way) the second launch afterwards, that there should be at least a little curiosity here.

If you change the blowing agent and the solvents for the ET foam and it starts falling off in flight, then you have a pretty good idea that something is wrong with the new stuff.

When you change the RCC attachments and it starts falling off in flight....????

2,861 posted on 03/08/2003 5:38:36 PM PST by snopercod
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2827 | View Replies]

To: XBob
"Haven't you read anything I have written,"

You know I have read it all, and I find your thought processes quite conflicting.

If you don't want me here, challenging you, let me know, I'll go elsewhere.

John
2,862 posted on 03/08/2003 6:03:34 PM PST by John Jamieson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2850 | View Replies]

To: snopercod
I'm interested, but I know of NO data on the subject. You have some?
2,863 posted on 03/08/2003 6:05:19 PM PST by John Jamieson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2861 | View Replies]

To: XBob
I have been saying since the 1400's.

Excuse the levity, But Man! You are old!!!!!!

2,864 posted on 03/08/2003 7:51:51 PM PST by Cold Heat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2848 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy
2856 - Thanks for that interesting link, however, it's not what I was looking for.

There was a video on TV, I saw, which had the shuttle very plain, then several small flares, then a big one, then I think one more small one.

It was quite evident, no mistaking it, very very big. And I have searched and searched for that VIDEO. I haven't seen it again, anywhere. I have seen a few stills, like you pointed me to, but which dont show much.
2,865 posted on 03/08/2003 7:57:43 PM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2856 | View Replies]

To: snopercod
It would seem that if the leading edge system was modified in some unknown (to me) way in 2000, and failed (in some unknown way) the second launch afterwards, that there should be at least a little curiosity here.

Excellent idea! And, this is the basis of systematic trouble shooting.

The mods are of great interest to me, but there is apparently no info available to the public, and no indication that they are pursuing this line of reasoning.

Did they do something to lighten this craft that would be suspect and/or cause the RCC to be different in some way? Did the take some inconel supports out that they felt un-necessary? Did they try something different with the tile thickness and arrangements?

Only the shadow knows for sure.

2,866 posted on 03/08/2003 8:02:05 PM PST by Cold Heat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2861 | View Replies]

To: snooker
NASA says that 2 1/2 lbs of foam hit the wing at 500mph. And we have many good engineers on here who have calculated the problem.

I figure, hitting ceramic foam tiles I can crush into powder between my fingers, at 500mph with a 2 1/2 lb anything, would do a pretty good job of smashing the tiles up, even if it is just old hard urethane foam.
2,867 posted on 03/08/2003 8:04:48 PM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2857 | View Replies]

To: XBob
I did not see the vid, but I understand that a vid exists that was taken by a college proffessor in a AZ or Utah school that was very good. The guy gave it to NASA.

I have to check through my data, but I went to the schools site and got to the dept. site. The site was restricted, so that is all I got. If I recall, it was a astronomy dept.

2,868 posted on 03/08/2003 8:07:43 PM PST by Cold Heat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2865 | View Replies]

To: XBob
http://planetarium.unr.nevada.edu/shuttle.html

This was the site, I do not recall the professors name, but his site was for students only. I believe the guy was the dept. head.

2,869 posted on 03/08/2003 8:14:37 PM PST by Cold Heat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2867 | View Replies]

To: XBob
The NASA Watch site has been making fun of Goldin's attempt to rid the agency of the NASA Worm.

I noticed that OV-102 had a worm on the left aft payload bay.

Was the meatball logo on OV-102 installed during OMDP prior to STS-109?

The logo appears on the left wing upper surface.

The old worm was on the aft portion of the payload bay door.

I'm wondering if that NASA meatball logo was AFRSI. On prior flights the logo was a patchwork of blankets and LRSI white tiles.


This shows the vehicle prior to OMDP

This is a photo of OV-102 on STS-109

If NASA is reading this, I hope they did testing on thermal absorption of the two designs.

2,870 posted on 03/08/2003 8:23:13 PM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2867 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy; XBob; wirestripper
Hence, my suggestion to send FR into Nevada...depending upon where the impact point is conjectured to be.

The investigators have law inforcement searching western Neveda-southern Utah for an object tracked by radar...(FAA or Weather radar ?) It was reported snow on the ground hampered the search.

2,871 posted on 03/08/2003 8:29:29 PM PST by tubebender (?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2851 | View Replies]

To: XBob
As an engineer, maybe, maybe not.

If the foam did it fine. If the foam plus ice did it then also fine. Damage is done. Wing falls off.

What exactly are you saying? It's got to be the foam did it or else?

sheesh.

snooker

2,872 posted on 03/08/2003 8:30:38 PM PST by snooker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2867 | View Replies]

To: XBob
>> Can you give me a link, please. I keep trying to find what I saw on the early news casts, on the net,
and I can't find it anywhere.

Perhaps this is what you are looking for
APACHE HELICOPTER FOOTAGE OF SHUTTLE BREAK-UP QT
http://qs240.pair.com/sfnvideo/plus/p0302/030219apache_qt.html

This link is found on
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts107/030221telemetry/
but wasn't active when I tried it.

2,873 posted on 03/08/2003 10:38:11 PM PST by analyst2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2853 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy
Where did this photo come from, any text with it? It looks like all the left wing panels of the RCC are intact?
2,874 posted on 03/08/2003 10:41:53 PM PST by analyst2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2840 | View Replies]

To: XBob
There are two video links at this site. One is the Flagstaff, Arizona video, where the quality appears to be poor in comparison to what I've seen before, and the second one is from Reno, Nevada. I hadn't ever seen the Reno video. It has what I would describe as an "acute" flaring action. Interesting, to say the least.

http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/020503westvideo.htm
2,875 posted on 03/08/2003 11:39:51 PM PST by freepersup (And this expectation will not disappoint us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2848 | View Replies]

To: XBob
I just watched the Reno video again and my impression is that something explodes... possibly a tire blowing the gear door off ? It sure looks like an explosive event is taking place. Appears to be a discharge of energy over a very short period of time.
2,876 posted on 03/08/2003 11:48:58 PM PST by freepersup (And this expectation will not disappoint us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2848 | View Replies]

To: XBob
Upon further review- just before the shuttle intersects with the celestial object (Venus), shedding debris can be seen in trail, and more so as the shuttle passes by Venus.
2,877 posted on 03/09/2003 12:39:27 AM PST by freepersup (And this expectation will not disappoint us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2848 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy
BTTT
2,878 posted on 03/09/2003 12:52:29 AM PST by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: XBob
This link contains two choices of the video filmed in Reno- either a dial up or a broadband connection. FWIW, I have broadband and it is a better viewing image of the Reno video. The image is somewhat larger and clearer. The secondary debris shedding is easier to see.

Keep in mind that the shuttle is 45 miles above the earth at this point. It's actually further away (from the local viewer) when one considers the additional miles, due to the low angle in relation to the horizon. This helps to give some perspective to the size of the objects that we see in the video.

In the first instance, one doesn't see much of an object shedding the shuttle, compared to the flare or flash. A much thicker contrail is obvious and appears to remain within the contrail at the point of where the flare up first occurred.

The second event which is another debris shedding, provides us with a brief glimpse of a solid object trailing the shuttle as it passes by Venus. Although it appears as a small object, it should be noted what the distance is, from the viewer to the shuttle.

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2003/02/01/33451.php

The two video links are just under the headline in the article.
2,879 posted on 03/09/2003 1:56:03 AM PST by freepersup (And this expectation will not disappoint us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2848 | View Replies]

To: John Jamieson; XBob; All
The first panel has a large hole, as though someone had taken a bite from it.

xBob, doesn't the discription of the damage to this piece of RCC sound familiar?

2,880 posted on 03/09/2003 2:12:14 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2826 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,841-2,8602,861-2,8802,881-2,900 ... 4,541-4,548 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson