Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Observation on TPS damage on Orbiter
NASA photos | 2-3-03 | BoneMccoy

Posted on 02/04/2003 1:34:19 AM PST by bonesmccoy

In recent days the popular media has been focusing their attention on an impact event during the launch of STS-107. The impact of External Tank insulation and/or ice with the Orbiter during ascent was initially judged by NASA to be unlikely to cause loss of the vehicle. Obviously, loss of the integrity of the orbiter Thermal Protection System occured in some manner. When Freepers posted the reports of these impacts on the site, I initially discounted the hypothesis. Orbiters had sustained multiple impacts in the past. However, the size of the plume in the last photo gives me pause.

I'd like to offer to FR a few observations on the photos.

1. In this image an object approximately 2-3 feet appears to be between the orbiter and the ET.

2. In this image the object appears to have rotated relative to both the camera and the orbiter. The change in image luminosity could also be due to a change in reflected light from the object. Nevertheless, it suggests that the object is tumbling and nearing the orbiter's leading edge.

It occurs to me that one may be able to estimate the size of the object and make an educated guess regarding the possible mass of the object. Using the data in the video, one can calculate the relative velocity of the object to the orbiter wing. Creating a test scenario is then possible. One can manufacture a test article and fire ET insulation at the right velocity to evaluate impact damage on the test article.

OV-101's port wing could be used as a test stand with RCC and tile attached to mimic the OV-102 design.

The color of the object seems inconsistent with ET insulation. One can judge the ET color by looking at the ET in the still frame. The color of the object seems more consistent with ice or ice covered ET insulation. Even when accounting for variant color hue/saturation in the video, the object clearly has a different color characteristic from ET insulation. If it is ice laden insulation, the mass of the object would be significantly different from ET insulation alone. Since the velocity of the object is constant in a comparison equation, estimating the mass of the object becomes paramount to understanding the kinetic energy involved in the impact with the TPS.

3. In this image the debris impact creates a plume. My observation is that if the plume was composed primarily of ET insulation, the plume should have the color characteristics of ET insulation. This plume has a white color.

Unfortunately, ET insulation is orange/brown in color.

In addition, if the relative density of the ET insulation is known, one can quantify the colorimetric properties of the plume to disintegrating ET insulation upon impact.

Using the test article experiment model, engineers should fire at the same velocity an estimated mass of ET insulation (similar to the object seen in the still frame) at the test article. The plume should be measured colorimetrically. By comparing this experimental plume to the photographic evidence from the launch, one may be able to quantify the amount of ET insulation in the photograph above.

4. In this photo, the plume spreads from the aft of the orbiter's port wing. This plume does not appear to be the color of ET insulation. It appears to be white.

This white color could be the color of ice particles at high altitude.

On the other hand, the composition of TPS tiles under the orbiter wings is primarily a low-density silica.

In the photo above, you can see a cross section of orbiter TPS tile. The black color of the tile is merely a coating. The interior of the tile is a white, low-density, silica ceramic.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: columbiaaccident; nasa; shuttle; sts; sts107
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,521-1,5401,541-1,5601,561-1,580 ... 4,541-4,548 next last
To: TomServo
thanks tom - thats a pretty good cover story, good enough to be true, except for the 'bulge' in the shuttle image.

and I could see it as a 'fun' thing to do for 'geeks' in Albequerque.
1,541 posted on 02/13/2003 5:24:01 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1538 | View Replies]

To: leadpenny
Rohrabacher is a good man, and has a head on his shoulders.
1,542 posted on 02/13/2003 5:25:49 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1539 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
take a look at my 1491, and see what you can do with it.
1,543 posted on 02/13/2003 6:07:47 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1289 | View Replies]

To: XBob; bonesmccoy; All
1540 - I can't argue with your timeline presented there, not at all.

What I was trying to do before FR went down last night, was going back to one of my firsts posts (35) and the video where I think I see a prior hit to the wing. It is difficult to tell just where that hit occurred (if I read the video correctly).

If my theory is correct, there was a double hit, with the first one very close to the fuselage/wing underside, damaging the tiles near the wheel well.

The second larger chunk damages the RCC, as we have speculated.

I can't do the modifications like your overlay we finally got up, so do you want to give something like that a shot on these two diagrams?

Or am I beating a dead horse here?

1,544 posted on 02/13/2003 6:17:38 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1540 | View Replies]

To: spunkets; ganeshpuri89
1303 - "As far as the telescope they used goes, I'm not sure which one they used"

see 1538
1,545 posted on 02/13/2003 6:24:55 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1303 | View Replies]

To: freepersup
Good to see you back, freepersup.

I was trying to type a portion of that e-mail in. This is what I got (please forgive any typos).

Hi David,
I talked to Carlisle a bit ago and he let me know you guys at MOD were getting into the loop on the tile damage issue. I'm writing this email not really in an officiaal capacity but since we've worked together so many times I feel like I can say pretty much anything to you. And before I begin I would offer that I am admittedly erring way on the side of absolute worst-case scenario and I don't really believe things are as bad as I'm getting ready to make out. But I certainly believe that to not be ready for a gut-wretching decision after seeing instrumentation in the wheel well not be there after entry is irresponsible. One of my personal theories is that you should seriously consider the possibility of the gear not deploying at all if there is a substantial breach of the wheel well. The reason might be as the temps increase, the wheel (aluminum) will lose material properties as it heats up and the tire pressure will increase. At some point the wheel could fail and send debris everywhere. While it is true there are thermal fuses in the wheel, if the rate of heating is high enough, since the tire is such a good insulator, the wheel may degrade in strength enough to let go far below the 1100 psi or so that the tire normally bursts at. It seems to me that with that much carnage in the wheel well, something could get screwed up enough to prevent deployment and then you are in a world of hurt. The following are scenarios that might be possible...and since there are so many of them, these are offered just to make sure that some things don't slip thru the cracks...I suspect many or all of these have been gone over by you guys already:

1. Peopke talk about landing with two flat tires...I did too until this came up. If both tires blew up in the wheel well (not talking thermal fuse and venting but explosive decomp due to tire and/or wheel failure) the overpressure in the wheel well will be in the 60(?) + psi range. The resulting loads on the gear door (a quarter million lbs) would almost certainly blow the door off the hinges or at least send it out into the slip stream...catastrophic. Even if you could survive the heating, would the gear now deploy? And/or also,could you even reach the runway with this kind of drag?

The part I highlighted and underlined is very significant to me. The rest of his scenarios dealt mainly with landing with wheel/gear problems.

1,546 posted on 02/13/2003 6:37:36 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1533 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy; XBob; wirestripper; Thud; John Jamieson; All
Thought y'all might want to look at this re: timeline(s)

FR post live observations.

1,547 posted on 02/13/2003 7:00:02 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Budge
check your e-mail, I tried to send.
1,548 posted on 02/13/2003 7:05:11 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1544 | View Replies]

To: Budge
http://www.moonglow.net/ccd/pictures/other/index.html#columbia

great links!
1,549 posted on 02/13/2003 7:44:10 AM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1547 | View Replies]

To: XBob
Just saw the video taken in California at a guy's website. He realvideo'd the file and you can see a large glowing piece in the video. Is that the object you were discussing as part of the wing glove?

The object carries a significant amount of momentum and appears rather bright in the otherwise dark sky.

It's hard to characterize the object, but there appeared to be one small object prior and one after.

This clip I saw may have been linked in this thread prior, but this link is at: http://www.moonglow.net/ccd/pictures/other/columbia_breakup.rm
1,550 posted on 02/13/2003 7:48:22 AM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1540 | View Replies]

To: Budge
A double foam hit would explain a fair amount. I've been concerned all along that we're looking at two different, overlapping, event chains.
1,551 posted on 02/13/2003 7:49:38 AM PST by Thud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1544 | View Replies]

To: XBob
sounds like we think some of the fainter objects in the California video were some of the Al skin from the wing glove?

How does that square with the need to have zippering of the RCC?

If structure is melting from the airframe over CA-NV, the RCC has to zipper somewhere out over the Pacific.

Perhaps we should do some calculating of the position of the vehicle and the trajectory of the RCC panels.
1,552 posted on 02/13/2003 7:51:48 AM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1537 | View Replies]

To: XBob
1548 - We're getting better at this, finally. :)


RE: 1544 - I notice there is another arrow bottom right, xBoB. Is that the large foam/ice hit point?

Comments anyone?

1,553 posted on 02/13/2003 7:52:00 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1548 | View Replies]

To: Budge
good - the bottom arrow is just on the original drawing pointing like the one above, except it says RCC
1,554 posted on 02/13/2003 8:05:57 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1553 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy
He does have some good links there. Would like for him to join this conversation.
1,555 posted on 02/13/2003 8:08:55 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1549 | View Replies]

To: Thud
1551 - Agreed. Look again at that video in post 35. Unless I'm mistaken it even shows two chunks of foam/ice coming off, possibly a third that didn't hit.
1,556 posted on 02/13/2003 8:12:31 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1551 | View Replies]

To: XBob; bonesmccoy; Thud; All
About time, too :)

Another good link.

1,557 posted on 02/13/2003 8:18:22 AM PST by Budge (God Bless FReepers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1554 | View Replies]

To: Budge
Budge,
I posted a little bit last night about the other video (which shows the underside of the LH wing) on launch.

That video seems to show two ice impacts (one near the wing glove and the second down on the LH wing leading edge RCC near the area we have implicated in the loss of the elevon temp sensors).

I am beginning to see your point about the multiple nature of the impacts (originally I had not agreed with it).
1,558 posted on 02/13/2003 8:29:27 AM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1556 | View Replies]

To: bonesmccoy
7:52:20 first heating comes well out over pacific

7:55:53 some things comes off over california/nevada and make flares (photo of one posted with time stamp)

7:56:20 shuttle banks left and the last sensors grouped together running from same point in the web/glove (see NASA slide #17 of 25 with dwg and sensors) at 4 corners 150 miles from albequerque - these are above and below wing skin temp sensors.

albequerque we have photo of chunk gone

08:58:39 last sensor goes off line

08:59:28 last voice transmission

08:59:32 a.m. (LOS-00:00)
Loss of signal.
1,559 posted on 02/13/2003 8:31:32 AM PST by XBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1552 | View Replies]

To: leadpenny
thanks for the info.
I wanted to get a transcript of the yesterday's Congressional hearing on the Columbia disaster.

The RATS on the panel looked idiotic.

Fritz Hollings brings new meaning to "micromanagement".
1,560 posted on 02/13/2003 8:32:07 AM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1539 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,521-1,5401,541-1,5601,561-1,580 ... 4,541-4,548 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson