From NASA engineering film: Sequential pix of debris hitting Columbia's wing

NASA via CNN Online & Yahoo News ^ | 2/3/03 | Wolfstar

[Wolfstar]

Released Monday morning, a high-speed NASA engineering film shows a piece of debris falling from the large external tank on the space shuttle Columbia's liftoff and hitting the orbiter's left wing. Bear in mind that these are extreme close-ups of a high-speed event. In the top couple of photos, you see only the top of the broken-off piece. Most of it is in the shadows. Depending on which clip you see and how slowly it is run, to the uninitiated person's eye, it can look either like the debris strikes the wing hard enough to pulverize the debris, or the debris strikes a glancing blow and bounces off in the direction of the main and booster engine exhaust.

[TheBattman]

You are ignoring several facts - one major one is that the shuttle's protective tiles are actually quite delicate.....

[P-Marlowe]

Things were different then. If Glenn's space capsule was compromised there was nothing anyone could do. He was flying a rock and had no controls whatsoever. He had no supplies and there was literally no chance for a rescue.

In this case if the wing had been compormised and they knew it, there were lota of options. But they needed to start on those options the minute they suspected anything. I have heard a number of times today that the Shuttle Atlantis could have been readied in less than a week. It could not have been tested and tested and tested, but it could have been ready for an emergency mission in less than a week.

There was also the possiblity of a resupply from a disposable vehicle like the russians used to build and serivce their space stations. They could have stayed up long enough to mount a rescue mission if they had a resupply of oxygen scrubbers and food and stuff.

There were ways. My only hope is that they didn't really suspect that it was as bad as it was. Otherwise, heads will roll.

[boris]

I remember that.

But we already knew astronauts had enormous balls...

--Boris

[El Gato]

Eject science experiments, suits, food, water, anything to reduce the overall shuttle weight

I doubt they have the ability to jetison anything, other than the contents of the head, and I think they even recycle that :). Not without going EVA anyway, I'm pretty sure that science module is bolted on, and not with explosive bolts either. Something to include in a future design, I guess. That is nothing large in the payload bay that can't be easily let go. I'd allow an EVA to do it, and I'd always carry at least one suit for the person most appropriate to do it. Make unhooking the beast part of the training regime.

[sd-joe]

"would mean a 2000 mph wind"

No, the "wind" starts out at the 1000 mph speed of both the rocket and the "brick" at the time of separation, and decreases relative to the brick as the brick accelerates due to the wind. At the same time that it is accelerating due to the wind, it is decelerating due to gravity (the rocket is going pretty much straight up).

Now the "brick" in relation to the shuttle, starts out at the same speed, accelerates due to wind and decelerates due to gravity. The big unknown is how much "wind" acceleration there is in the short time before it hits the wing. We are talking a small fraction of a second here I believe. Even a fairly high acceleration would not result in a great speed change in a very small time span.

Also the wind acceleration is a function of density and surface area. A large flat but light surface (like a car hood or sail) would accelerate much more than a dense, small, round object.

All that being said, the speeds and forces involved here are pretty impressive. However, the shuttle is not as fragile as some make it out to be. It is constructed to handle this incredible environment.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks Joe. My premise has been that the materials were larger than stated and that they sailed into the wing picking up speed much faster than people are willing to acknowledge. Once again, if you have had your hood blow up, you will understand how fast something can pick up speed.

[meyer]

Probably a case of "whistling past the graveyard". Previous incidents have not resulted in tragedy -- bringing creeping confidence/laxity? I am curious about one thing: exactly how fragile are these tiles? Surely they are not as strong as ceramic, which wold be very heavy. But they can't be soft-structurted, like foam. Are they fibrous, like aspestos? Do you have any idea?

Actually, the tiles are a type of ceramic material, since this is the only material that can take the heat. Metal would melt at 3000 degrees+ f. Your theory of "whistling past the graveyard" may hold some truth. I'd be willing to bet that many launches have debris falling off the shuttle/rocket as it accelerates towards space. Its just this one that has drawn attention since something happened.

[PhiKapMom]

I was only reporting what he said NASA had determined when looking at the piece from all angles. They had pictures of the launch that the media did not have in making their determination. It was not 8 x 12 feet as had been reported.

[boris]

"Golden's motto was designed to have money diverted to Russia to please albore and his buddy boris. "

Let me state for the record that he didn't send me a ruble. Also it's Goldin, not "Golden"--which is how the Russians thought of him. And I am NOT his buddy!

--Boris

[glock rocks]

dunno.

[SSN558]

"Why is not every mission equipped with the ability to dock with the ISS"

I am bound to get corrected if wrong, but it is my impression that Columbia lacked this capability. It was the first shuttle built and at 128,000 pounds can't carry a payload and reach the altitude to dock with ISS.

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

I saw a news clip on this. They said that managers made decisions they were not educated to make, and or for personal/political reasons. I have no idea if this was continuing.

[MonroeDNA]

"even if they determined that the incident was a threat to the shuttle, THERE WAS NOTHING THEY COULD DO..."

Nothing they could do to prevent the inevitable, if this turns out to be the cause.

But if someone did know, and did not inform the crew, and did not inform the President, and did not let the crew know of the risk, giving them an informed, final opportunity to talk to their families about the situation, they should be ashamed, if not hung.

If someone decided not to tell the crew, I would withdraw my support for the eintire space program, and encourage everyone to do the same, until such arrogant weasels are purged.

Please, God, let this not be the case, where they knew, and did not tell them. Please let this be not the case.

[TheDon]

"THERE WAS NOTHING THEY COULD DO"

This seems to be some kind of mantra to absolve NASA and to place this accident in the category of the acceptable risks of space flight. To me it always begs the question, "Why are we sending up shuttles with no hope of survival for the crew if the tiles become damaged during launch?" This is the question that needs to be answered. There are various means of saving the crew, but they all require preparation before the launch, and, obviously, none of them were done on this mission. A rather sad way to treat such brave souls. May the Columbia crew RIP.

[meyer]

Nothing?
How about
1) Let the crew know they may die
2) Give the crew chance to record their goodbyes
3) Extend orbit as long as possible while thinking of solutions
4) Download results of all scientific experiments
5) on and on and on

Do you think for a second that if there was a suspected danger for the crew, that many of these things would not have been done? These are scientists and engineers dangit, not politicians. Good Flippin Grief!

[DoughtyOne]

I listened to someone talk about them yesterday. I have forgotten the exact example they used, but evidently they are quite brittle. I'm afraid I can't quantify that for you, but they are not hardy. They can be damaged by what you and I might consider light impact. Would that totally incapacitate them? I don't think so. Care is certainly called for in handling them. I got the impression that an impact could certainly damage them.

Sorry I couldn't pin that down better.

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

Yes, and the wiring issue was resolved as well.

[El Gato]

7 people have lost their lives in a risky business

Make that 14, 7 each on Challenger and now Columbia. It's really too bad Enterprise was not made in such a way as to be upgradeable to space worthyness, but as I understand it, it wasn't. (In case someone doesn't know, Enterprise was the first shuttle, but it was only used for "drop tests", from the back of the same 747 they use to transport the shuttles back to Kennedy if they have to land elsewhere, usually Edwards. They did this with pilots in Enterprise, flying it back to the dry lake at Edwards.)

[VRWC For Truth]

You know the shuttle was raining debris down on parts of the USA. They were DAMN lucky no one on the ground was killed. I bet you'd be singing a different tune if one of your loved ones was killed on the ground by a piece of shuttle debris. Not only is NASA risking the lives of the astronauts, they are also risking lives on the ground with this foolishness of not protecting those tiles on liftoff. There's nothing they could do, yea right.

[DoughtyOne]

If I referenced 8x12 feet I misspoke. I realized we were talking inches.