Church's sign has Muslims outraged -''Jesus Forbade Murder. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

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[chance33_98]

Church's sign has Muslims outraged

Florida pastor says criticism of Islam is legal and fair

Associated Press Friday, January 17, 2003

Jacksonville --- The Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida is calling on state religious leaders to repudiate a Jacksonville Baptist church's roadside sign the group claims is anti-Muslim.

The sign outside the First Conservative Baptist Church in Jacksonville's Mandarin area reads: ''Jesus Forbade Murder. Matthew 26:52. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

Altaf Ali, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida, said his organization attempted to talk with the Baptist church's officials about the sign, but were rebuffed with belligerent language.

''All Americans must band together to condemn hate speech designed to divide our nation along religious and ethnic lines,'' Ali said. ''Any attempt to marginalize or vilify one religious community is an attack on all people of faith.''

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gene Youngblood, who also leads the Conservative Theological Society and Conservative Christian Academy, said he has been using the marquee-type sign to express the church's opinion for 15 years and has no plans to remove the message.

''First and foremost, are we not entitled to freedom of speech?'' Youngblood said.

Youngblood, who said he is an expert on world religions, said he had been threatened and his property vandalized. He said he has filed 13 police reports since July.

Youngblood said his church would issue a formal statement later.

Iman Zaid Malik, spiritual leader of the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida, said some Christian friends brought the offensive sign to his attention.

''Misinformation must be rejected by all people of conscience,'' Malik said. ''This shows that the vast majority of Americans reject hate and seek a society where good overcomes the evil.''

Malik said the Quran verse indicates that those who believe and are steadfast in battle will overcome much larger armies. It is not an endorsement of murder, he said.

The verse reads: ''O Prophet [Muhammad]! Inspire the believers to conquer all fear of death when fighting, [so that] if there be twenty of you who are patient in adversity, they might overcome two hundred; and if there be one hundred of you, they might overcome one-thousand of those bent on denying the truth, because they are people who cannot grasp it.''

The Council on American-Islamic Relations said the Quran also states, ''whoever murders a person . . . it will be as if he killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life, shall be regarded as if he saved all mankind.''

ON THE WEB: Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida: www.cair-florida.org

First Conservative Baptist Church: www.conservative.edu/main.htm

[freebilly]

What does that leave as a choice?

The extermination of Islam as a religion?

Well, if Biblical prophecy is to be believed, all our problems with Islam will end sooner or later....

[Luis Gonzalez]

Consider John Q. Muslim.

He lives someplace where a dromedary is a perfectly normal mode of transportation, and the public facilities suck; but at least the weather stays pretty constant, and things around you are interesting (think Chinese curses here).

He has a wife and a couple of kids, and he’s trying to make a living to keep everyone under roof, fed, clothed, and schooled...ok, well maybe not that... plus all the rest of the basic needs that exist anywhere where else.

Sort of…

He watches the news—when he can—on local television that would make CNN appear to be the picture of unbiased journalism, and reads newspapers that most civilized finches would defecate on principle alone, even if they have to break out of their cages to do so.

He sees pictures of a western world where people more or less very much like him—in the fact that they have the same daily preoccupations of going about the business of gathering the necessary funds to sustain their wives and kids—seem to have a much better life than he does (no camels in sight in any picture of America that he’s ever seen) and he knows what its might can do when it directs its undivided attention at an enemy.

He also hears the call to Jihad from the extremists within his world.

He has a basic idea of the kind of hell the west can rain down on countries where four hoofs compete for pavement space with four tires, and probably just wishes that these idiots would go someplace where they would not affect him, or that American bombs are sufficiently smart to send his fundie brother-in-law and his crew on a date with seven Muslim virgins while missing himself and his family, even though they all share what in any semi-developed part in the world would be at best be considered a hovel; and having had a Muslim virgin on his wedding night, he can’t possibly imagine how that unfortunate experience, times seven, could be considered paradise.

And he knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if his brother-in-law and his extremist friends wrest control of his life, his future is bleaker than his present.

Whatever the most obvious end to this clash of civilizations could be, it most surely spells the defeat of moderate Islam, so the enemy of moderate Islam’s enemy, is their friend.

So I’m asking John Q. Muslim to consider this, realize that this is their fight even more so than it is ours, and that the time has come for them to step up to the plate and fight for their world, as we fight the people who would destroy it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

This is true.

Funny, I was talking to a very religious friend of mine a few days ago, his idea is that we are in the end times, and that the coming war is the Armageddon of Biblical prophesy.

My attitude is that it could very well be just that, but in spite of that possibility, I will strive to maintain the war at the level of fighting a specific enemy. If by doing that, a global war of civilizations can be avoided, it couldn't be Armageddon, as I don't think we can stop Armageddon from happening.

[Luis Gonzalez]

prophesy=prophecy

My kingdom for a spell checker!

[Leatherneck_MT]

Yes you are sorely mistaken.

Christianity is based on the following and belief in Christ. The 10 Commandments are one of the original Laws given to the Jews. The Law was for the Jews, Christ came to fullfill the law but at the same time to be a sacrifice for us so that we would have everlasting life and not be found guilty under the law.

[Leatherneck_MT]

The fact remains that Islam has been throughout it's history a violent bloody cult. Anyone who has read anything of it's history can see that.

[Michael2001]

If selected verses were taken out of context in the bible (murder, incest, genocide) and contrasted against 'good' verses in any other religon, Christianity would look bad.

Yes but as you said you would have to take them out of context, which is why you don't have millions of Churches teaching their followers to kill non-Christians. Islam is in fact a violent religion, and is the source of our conflict today.

[Michael2001]

The heart of the issue is: which will help you bring more people to Christ: spreading hatred or by spreading empathy and understanding. I'm not talking about blindly embracing another religion, I'm talking about being neighbor to those of different faiths. This sign alienates would-be converts. Or is that not the issue at hand?

No it's not. Truth is we are under attack from Islam, and most of our leaders are too afraid to say so. We need to educate ourselves regarding our enemy, and the only people willing to do that are the Baptists.

[Michael2001]

Can you explain why you disagree with the Pastor's tactics and call him a fool?

Thi sign will probably not draw Muslims in, but this is not an area where there are many Muslims anyway. I think it will draw in many Christians of other denominations who are sickened by their own denominations coddling of Islam, as well as those of other religions, or atheists.

I am SBC, and I can't tell you how many times those of other religions, Methodists, Catholics, Jews, agnostics, tell me they appreciate that my Church doesn't pull any punches. Our leaders speak the truth without regards to PC.

[Michael2001]

Why do you assume that the Pastor took qoutes out of context?

[Michael2001]

Well, then, we shouldn't complain when they smash a plane into a buidling then.

Shouldn't we complain (and at the same time impugn a good percentage of the world's population) when abortion clinics and gay bars get bombed?

You know that there is no equivalence. The Islamic terrorists are supported by a large network, millions of Mosques, many countries, hundreds of millions of Muslims. These are not wingnuts acting on their own.

[Michael2001]

Its amazing how weak the faith of many on FR must be that they "cringe" at the idea that there is a competing faith out there. They cower so much that they disobey Christ's primary commandment.

While as Christians it is our duty to spread the word of Christ, our issue with Islam is not so much that it is a competing religion, rather that it is out to kill us. That is why there are not many anti-Hindu threads on here.

[Michael2001]

Mohammed was a wingnut for sure, but to condemn an entire populace on the basis of a selected verse is a litte unfair.

What makes you think this is a selected verse. Have you read the Koran?

This is like saying, just by taking one verse out of context in Mein Kempf doesn't mean that Hitler hated Jews.

The Muslims are out to kill or convert us. Their holy book preaches this, and their actions carry it out.

[Michael2001]

Or when McVeigh blows up the Federal building. Muhammad has been dead for over a thousand years. Individuals committed these crimes.

I must've missed where McVeigh said he did that for Jesus, or the millions of Christians dancing in the streets when he did.

[Michael2001]

We don't need to wage war against more than a billion people, we need to wage war against them that want war.

No we don't need to wage war against a billion Muslims. The only Muslims that are a threat are the 2-3 million in this country. Muslims in Iraq and Tajikistan are not a threat, Muslims in South Carolina are. Stop Muslim immigration, and keep very close tabs on the Muslims here, and educate the populace to the threat.

Sending my military family members from Virginia to Iraq is pretty dumb, when our government is still allowing the enemy to come into our own country. Keep our military at home, war on their soil is not necessary.

If we knew what Islam was 30 years ago and adjusted our immigration policy to allow for it, we wouldn't have had 9/11, the sniper, and two of my brothers wouldn't be in Iraq right now.

[SpringheelJack]

Let's say you are completely correct, the Jewish Revolt of the 1st Century and The Crusades of the 11th-13th Centuries were solely the result of resentment about who controlled Jerusalem.

I didn't say that was "solely" the reason for those wars. Wars always have several causes, some major, some minor. But it - and religious zealotry - happened to be a major reason, and a connecting thread, in all of them.

Furthermore, let's say that there is a complete moral equivalence between Islamic fundamentalists attacking and killing Jews in Israel and Jews killing Romans in the 1st Century as well as Christians killing Jews and Muslims during the Crusades. To the current credit of Jews and Christians, something happened to purge the streak of violence from these religions. No such reformation has come about in Islam.

What happened was that they got beat.

Violence is normative in fundamental (Wahhabi) Islam. Violence is not the norm in fundamental Christianity.

Violence is the norm of humanity.

No Christian can point to the New Testament to justify violence. Fundamental Muslims can point to the Koran to justify violence and murder. In order for Islam to undergo a reformation, Wahhabism must be exterminated and all copies of the Koran need to be re-edited to take out sections approving the murder of Jews and Christians.

If you're looking for something, you can find it. Just going by memory, there's the "two swords" passage, the cleansing of the Temple (Jesus plays rough), the imprecations on cutting off what jeapordizes your salvation (heretics and infidels?), and the Book of Revelation, which among other things, includes such edifying images as Jesus astride a horse with his tunic soaked in blood. These things (along with the stuff in the Old Testament which, like it or not, is a part of the Christian Bible) have been enough for Christians in the past to justify violence in the name of the Lord.

Later Christians have taken a more moderate interpretation on these passages, taking them in the greater context of the Bible. And despite your skepticism, I have reasonable hopes that once these radical Islamists get beat, as the radical Christians and the radical Jews did before, it will prompt a re-examination of themselves which will purge such violent interpretations from the mainstream of Islamic thought. There are already plenty of good and decent Muslims in the world, and there have been many in the past, and where there's one there could be two, and where there's 100 there could be 1000, and so on. If the Jews could outgrow the violence in the Old Testament, I think Muslims could too.

[SpringheelJack]

The fact is, Christians in the 11th century found plenty of scriptural reasons to justify their actions, just as the Muslims do today Where, in the New Testament, is there a single scriptural reference that would justify murder?

I supplied in another post several examples of what radical Christians thought justified their actions. Later Christians have rebuked such interpretations, but what happened, happened.

And your insistence on excluding the Old Testament from this is strange to me; if the Christians don't want it to be used, then why print it in their Bibles? If the Old Testament was good enough for Jesus and Paul to quote, and for apparently all later Christians except yourself, then why is it no surprise Crusaders did? Or is it that Christianity is just a religion of peace, while Judaism is a bloody, hateful religion, founded on a book that teaches so many violent things - the presence of which apparently even you acknowledge?

[FreedomCalls]

My kingdom for a spell checker!

http://www.dictionary.com/

Cashier's check or money order only please.

[Marysecretary]

Why would God tell Muhammed to kill Christians and Jews? Does that make any sense to you, Dave? Sure doesn't to me.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I know that one, I need one integrated in the system!