AZ Alert: Lawmaker: Aid to Mexican States is Cheaper Than Border Security

Santa Fe New Mexican ^ | 01/10/2003 | Associated Press

[hsmomx3]

TUCSON, Ariz. - Economic aid targeted to 50 regions in just six Mexican states could cut illegal immigration to the United States in half, a Mexican congressman said Thursday.

Eduardo Arnal Palomera, one of four lawmakers from Mexico on a three-day trip to Tucson to meet with local, state, federal and Indian officials, said American contribution toward Mexico's economic development would be mutually beneficial in helping solve his country's illegal immigration.

Lack of jobs and economic desperation is what drives hundreds of thousands of Mexicans to cross the border illegally every year seeking jobs here, according to Arnal Palomera.

He said the situation is most difficult in the states of Oaxaca, Zacatecas, Puebla, Guanajuato, Guerrero and Chiapas.

"It's cheapest for the United States to help Mexico to grow" by stimulating jobs and industry there than to continue to pay for "security, helicopters, Border Patrol, fences, walls," Arnal Palomera said.

He said he planned to deliver the same message during a scheduled meeting Friday with southern Arizona Reps. Jim Kolbe and Raul Grijalva.

The delegation met with Gov. Janet Napolitano for nearly a half-hour behind closed doors to discuss illegal immigration-related issues, including efforts of private groups patrolling the Arizona border.

Congressman Tarcisio Navarrette Montes de Oca, who headed the delegation, said the group proposed creating a binational working group of state, local and federal officials "to study, analyze and propose an urgent solution" to soaring deaths of Mexican migrants trying to cross the Arizona desert.

A record 145 illegal immigrants died during the past fiscal year, including 83 of heat exposure.

Arnal Palomera said he and his colleagues were concerned that ranchers and groups organizing patrols along the Arizona border have weapons and could cause a confrontation with illegal immigrants leading to violence.

Navarrette Montes said he hopes "to find a win-win solution for both countries and promote protection for human rights and we are open to promote commercial and economic exchange."

The group also met with Tucson Mayor Bob Walkup and the Tucson-Mexico Trade Office to develop new ways for improving trade activities - including improved rail connections.

©Santa Fe New Mexican 2003

[Dr Warmoose]

Almost all other male noncitizens are required to register, including ILLEGAL ALIENS, legal permanent residents, and refugees.

I Stand corrected. You are the man!

Now that I think about it, Rep. Charles Rangle (D-NY), is clever in a devious sort of way by wanting to bring back the draft. Through this scheme, foreigners who become conscripted have a real strong reason to go home, or we have a great way to save our boys from really lousy work, or best yet, we can find out which immigrants really do love this country and are willing to sacrifice themselves for it. Too bad the selective service requirements were not extended to those on student visas - one day protesting the united States and burning the flag, the next day eating mud, doing pushing-ups and "encouraged" to love every moment of it

[madfly]

Thank you. I found that web site to verify registration and I wanted to convey how terribly easy it is for anyone to do an instant check and left out some facts.

Why aren't the airports using this Law for males of draft age, I ask myself.

Too bad the selective service requirements were not extended to those on student visas - one day protesting the united States and burning the flag, the next day eating mud, doing pushing-ups and "encouraged" to love every moment of it."

Well put. Now I need to find out what criteria colleges use to revoke student visas. At that point I would think they would be deported or change their status and then be required to register.

Thanks for your feedback Doc.

BTW I am a lady fly, hon.

[FITZ]

It's not a matter of fault it's a simple matter of solution.

It is a matter of fault and you can't find a solution until you find where the problem starts. The Mexican government is very corrupt and that country needs to change it's laws and culture ---becoming a bigger and bigger parasite to the US is no solution.

[FITZ]

A gift from America cannot change a culture which relies on fraud, graft, and payoffs to deliver goods and services to its citizens.

That sums it up quite well. Mexico is extremely corrupt, until they change that, they'll never develop ---there is no good excuse for prosperity ending at the Rio Grande because the same resources are on both sides of the border.

[FITZ]

I see people calling to fix the problem which WILL require money, nothing in this world is free. I don't know why everybody on your side of this debate insists on describing what their asking for in terms that they aren't asking for. They are specifically looking for money to fix the border provinces by encouraging business and ownrship. They're even smart enough to want to focus efforts on the border provinces where it will have the most effect on illegal immigrants.

Mexico has to fix it's own culture and government I would think ---unless we just invaded and took it over. It's wrong to assume the illegals come from the border states because many come from the interior ----look how many are from Zacatecas and Chiapas alone. Much of the border region is desert and we shouldn't be doing anything to encourage more people to migrate to border regions, they're better off in the states with water.

[discostu]

Mexico should fix it's own problems, but when their problems become our problems then we have a right and possibly even a duty to help out.

I don't think the presumption is that illegals come FROM the border states but rather THROUGH. If people are coming north to find a better life for themselves and they find it BEFORE they cross our border then they won't go any further. I see this as kind of a baby step approach, in the end all of Mexico needs to be fixed, but that's a daunting task, if we start with the area that has the most impact on illegal immigration we get good progress fast and an anchor point to spread from.

[FITZ]

If we have to fix Mexico, it would be better to fix the interior states because anything we do to cause more migration to the border states causes more problems. Look at cities like Ciudad Juarez which also suffers enormous problems due to massive migration --much of it looks like a big refugee camp, it went from being a fairly good town 30 years ago to being a hellhole today. The majority of people should stay in their towns, in their same neighborhoods and maintain family ties because that leads to stability. Mexico has lost much of that because of NAFTA luring them to maquilas and the loss of it's working population to the US.

[madfly]

"I am puzzled by those who demand 100% out of a dragnet, somehow implying that in absence of a perfect plan that nothing should be done.

I am too. Do these people just want to win an argument by pointing out the flaws or drawbacks, instead of seeing anything positive? Or are these people who are experienced in getting out of committments. Or is it an American thing.We have become soft and isolated, with our 5 or 6 remote controls, big screens and video games.

It is now 2003 and obvious that We the People have to get on the same page and do something. If we just print out these laws and penalties for not registering with Selective Service, (in English and Espanol) and the URL for an on-the-spot verification, and maybe an old "Uncle Sam Needs You" poster, we can provide a powerful tool.

Everyone is so frustrated by these yellow and orange terror alerts. People will be happy to have a way to run a "patriot check" on applicants, prospective tenants, to help fight the "war on terror". If this catches on, a draft card might become a 2nd form of ID for young men as it was in the 60's. Then it's just a matter of carrying copies around with you and handing them out to Employers, Doctors, Apartment Managers, Bank Managers. Print out some business cards with the words "Selective Service Laws" and the URL's on the web for more information. And those of you that are Vet's can get some use out of that old uniform. Take a few to a City Council Meeting. Take them to the polls. Please bear with me. Ideas are coming to me faster than I can analyze them, but when I first began to think about this last week, I sent an email to Michelle Malkin. She replied: "Thanks. You make a great point. Illegal aliens routinely violate this requirement." I got this reply from Allan Wall in Mexico, "good point, that's another arm to control illegal immigration."

I was thrilled and inspired by these emails and that is why I can't let go of the possiblilities and simplicity of this idea and how it falls under the heading of Bush's call to "help our neighbor, do the community a service, fight the war on terror" And I think this is a job for all of us 55 and over baby-boomer, veterans and grandparents, who remember what America was like and what our brothers, sons and fathers fought and died for. It's our turn! Feedback please. I'm just making this up as I go. Please ping FR vets, if you can.

thanks

God Bless America

[norton]

Couple of things:

It is true that you cannot "seal" the border, no border, no time.
But you sure as hell can make it difficult, you can make it MORE dangerous, you can lower the odds that any given crosser will make it safely or without being busted (one way or another). Having accomplished that much you are left with only the professionals to deal with and they should be dealt with as pirates and brigands: on sight.

And, I don't know what the border cops may have done during the last LA riot fest but the statement about those rioters being 'black people' is flat wrong. Rodney King is black (and, thankfully not in the news this week), Reginald Denny is white; the rioting actually started when a bunch of mostly white dip-sh*** tossed a police gate shack to 'protest brutality'. The rioters were polyglot opportunists for the most part and that's proven in miles of video tape. The one real racial lesson was that it was mostly Koreans who managed to defend themselves adequately.

[FITZ]

"But if we think massive immigration is a problem for America then the best solution available to us is to make Mexico a place worth staying in."

It's also a problem for Mexico. Mexico won't be a place worth staying in until it stops trying to get rid of it's people, how can they begin to solve their problems until they try to keep the people they need in that country?

Los páramos desiertos

http://www.diario.com.mx/servicios/hemeroteca/nota.asp?notaid=21927

A good article showing why all this is leading to more instability in Mexico, a worsening of conditions there.

[FITZ]

BTW ---the campesinos will be shutting down the bridges along the border again next week protesting NAFTA.

Anuncian campesinos reinicio de bloqueos

http://www.diario.com.mx/servicios/hemeroteca/nota.asp?notaid=25829

Durante una semana, del 13 al 20 de enero, los integrantes de catorce organizaciones campesinas iniciarán, además, un ayuno para exigir al gobierno de Vicente Fox Quesada la revisión inmediata del TLC.

They're demanding NAFTA be revised immediately.

[Ajnin]

From my experience as a Border Patrol Agent I can tell you the border can be shut off from the massive flood of illegals that are crossing. The main reason why it hasn't been done already is because we have so many people in the INS saying it can't be done. My Sector encompasses the In Ko Pah Mtn range east of San Diego. It is easily some the most difficult terrain on the southern border to police. When we make a concerted effort to do so we shut the area down. Of course, never having been a Border Patrol Agent and not knowing anything about our operations, it's understandable that you would think that it is impossible.

[RnMomof7]

and you'd have a wall against immigration too!

yea anyone "breaking in" would be where they belonged..PRISON..

[dark_lord]

A - much of the terrain sucks; rough, nasty, hot, poison animals, and suprisingly low visibility (creosote bushes which are the most common flora around these parts seem to be designed by God to hide stuff, they grow about 7 feet tall and 8 feet around, are nearly impossible to see through and like to grow in lose clusters you can walk through if you don't mind a couple of scrapes), canyons, rivers, mountains, the tail end of Death Valley B - man power, to man a station 24/7 and be able to deal with sick time and vacation and such takes 5 people (business 101), so even assuming 1 person can seal 2 miles of border (which I seriously doubt, but I'll give it to you because I'm a nice person), the border is about 2000 miles long, that's 1000 stations, 5000 men... then you've got support personel, you can't just have 5000 people strewn across the border, they're gonna need some place to stay, something to eat, and somebody to man their station when they're hauling bad guys in (business 101 doesn't contemplate having to leave a station during the accomplishment of duties) C - sensoring equipment is nice, but it's only as good as your area of coverage and your distance of response, if the bad guys leave the coverage area before somebody shows up to aprehend them all the equipment accomplished was to get a headcount

To point (a) - motion sensors, heat sensors, and video cameras. These would, used together and feeding data to a monitoring post, permit a few people to monitor hundreds of miles of border. Also - the sensors would not just be deployed in a shallow line. Deploy them 5 miles deep. Sensors can use solar panels for power (the sensors themselves consume very little power.) This is not new technology, by the way -- the military has quite a bit of experience with this stuff. Its not real expensive, either.

To point (b) - deploy border patrol teams when border crossers are identified in an area.

Finally, when you say it is not possible, I merely point to the DMZ between North and South Korea. There is a place with rugged terrain, lousy weather - and really, really tight border security - for hundreds of miles.

[JustAnAmerican]

"All this started when you said the answer was to capture and deport ALL the illegals, and seal the borders, which I said was not possible. Now you're agreeing, which means you aknowledge that your "solution" wouldn't work and other methods must be considered. Done deal.

Guess I need to clarify things so as not to confuse. My "Catch and deport all illegal aliens" in the literal sense may not be accomplishable (nothing can ever be guaranteed 100 percent), however I do think we can get close to 100 percent capture rate, and I think we ought to start doing just that. I am not putting words in your mouth, I am going from your posts, you agreed with the premise of this thread I.E. "Aid to Mexican States is Cheaper Than Border Security", and I pointed out that we ought to catch all the illegals in this country, deport them and seal our borders.

You then came back and said this was impossible, I disagree with you 100 percent. I never said I disagree with you on al fronts, just the "Its impossible to catch all illegal aliens" one.This is a forum for thought and discussion,you have yours I have mine. I will restate my opinion, round up all(that can be caught) illegal aliens in this country, ship them back to the third world toilets they come from and seal the borders. Lets start by suing the Anti-American business's that refuse to hire Americans because it may cost them more. Personally I prefer we give them jail time, but that may not be possible at the moment.And no I do not mean Unionized workers, I loathe the Unions and what they stand for.

Everytime I turn around I hear people say how we should find other ways to stop the illegal flow instead of following "The Law", "The Law" applies to everyone, not just Law Abiding Americans.

[JustAnAmerican]

"We aren't being invaded, the American southwest is NOT being turned into anything, I do live here, that's how I know that paranoid racist crap is just that- CRAP"

Up until I saw this post I thought we just had a differnce of opinion, but seems you are now resorting to the dims trick word "Racist". I was wondering if it would ever raise its head in this discussion, you win the prize.

[discostu]

Absolutely, if nothing else they're having a talent bleed, I've seen the effect of talent bleeds on companies, I've seen the effect of talent bleeds on cities, no reason to think it would be any better on a country. Problem is I'm not sure Mexico has the will or the knowledge to fix the problem. We faced a similar, though not so acute, problem with Europe after WWII, thus the Marshal Plan was born. While the Marshal Plan gave birth to our modern era of money dumping foreign aid in it's original form it was about focusing and directing aid to assist countries into becoming self sufficient prosperous non-communists. Might be time for a Mexico Plan.

[discostu]

Well your experience as a BP Agent (which I respect and honor by the way) is vastly different than any of the other BP people I've known (half a dozen with jobs spanning the duty list from actually walking the border all the way to running the computers). What they tell me is that the best we can do is seal off one section for a limited time, and much like speed traps word passes pretty quickly which area they're sealing. Sorry insulting me won't convince me the patently impossible is feasable.

[discostu]

That's not a bad plan but sensor array are NOT cheap, and the array has to be able to track the bad guys until they're caught, depending on how you've got your agents clustered that's a range of at least 2 preferably 5 miles deep. That means setting up and maintaining a 4 to 10 thousand square mile sensor array. That is a GIGANTIC piece of change. I'm glad you brought up the DMZ, because it doesn't work. The DMZ is probably the most secure chunk of realestate on the planet and the bad guys still manage to sneak across periodically. It also costs us an AMAZING amount of money to maintain, and is about 1/100th the size of our border with Mexico (generally speaking complexity of securing a region increases exponentially to size, so securing a region 100 times the size will be 10,000 times the complexity).

[FITZ]

Might be time for a Mexico Plan.

I'd probably have to agree. We should be paying attention to what is going on in Mexico, the campesinos are protesting and that movement seems to be gaining strength, the PRD is somewhat leftist which should concern us but we shouldn't take the side of the elites against their campesinos either. Most campesinos are the decent people of Mexico and what the elites don't understand is they are the most Mexican and not all will be eager to leave their lands and go stand in some California Home Depot parking lot begging for a job ---even if they can make a bit more money if they do. I really don't understand why the Mexican government has declared war on it's rural people but it goes back to Salinas who was pretty open about getting rid of these people.