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Macworld Expo keynote coverage recap (New PowerBooks, New Web Browser!)
MacCentral.com ^ | January 7, 2002 | Peter Cohen

Posted on 01/07/2003 1:51:09 PM PST by Timesink

[Read from the bottom up; each paragraph was posted in reverse order as Jobs spoke.]

Macworld Expo keynote coverage recap
by Peter Cohen, pcohen@maccentral.com
January 7, 2003 12:00 pm ET

MacCentral's coverage of Steve Jobs' keynote address from Macworld Expo has concluded. Please visit our home page for more news from the show. The coverage below is presented in reverse chronological order, with the oldest content at the bottom of the page.

"What's driving us is one simple thing, and that's innovation."

Jobs says that 2003 is "the year of the notebook for Apple." Displayed video and TV ads showing off new PowerBooks.

12 inch PowerBook G4 will sell for $1799. "Most affordable PowerBook ever, and we will be shipping them in about two weeks." Can be built to order with a SuperDrive for $1999. (15 inch PowerBook remains in the matrix, by the way.)

"There is one more small thing:" A new 12 inch PowerBook. 1.2 inches thick. 4.6 pounds -- smaller than Duos. Full sized keyboard. Smaller than the iBook in every dimension. 1024 x 768 display. 867MHz G4 processor. Nvidia GeForce4 420 Go, 40GB. Slot Load Combo drive. Wireless and bluetooth. Airport Extreme ready (module costs $99). 5 hours of battery life -- "same as iBook even though it has a G4." Also bundled with QuickBooks.

New 17 inch PowerBook G4 priced at $3299. Will be shipping them in February.

Claims 4.5 hours of battery life using new battery technology, regardless of screen. Also bundling QuickBooks.

Airport Extreme Base Station: Support for up to 50 users. Support for wireless bridging -- buy another base station and you will automatically be bridged between them. USB printing support (USB port on the base station). Priced at $199.

Introduced "Airport Extreme:" 54Mbps 802.11g wireless networking. Said the other 54Mbps 802.11a standard is "doomed to failure" because of lack of compatibility with 802.11b hotspots. New card is built in to the 17 inch PowerBook. "Antennas where they belong," on the left and right edges of the screen. Said that the range is equal to the iBook.

Bluetooth is built-in. AirPort is built-in. "Most wirelessly capable notebook in the industry."

Specs: 1GHz G4 1MB L3 cache, SuperDrive, GeForce 440 Go Nvidia chipset, 64MB graphics memory, 60GB hard disk. First system to use "FireWire 800." Interface: USB, FireWire 400, FireWire 800 (can also use older FireWire devices on 800 port with adapter), Gigabit Ethernet, S-Video output, DVI output, security, power, modem, second USB port, PC card slot, audio in, headphones.

17 inch PowerBook G4. Uses the same display on the 17 inch iMac with thinner backlight. 1 inch thick. Thinnest PowerBook ever. 1440 x 900 display. Fiber optic backlighting system in keyboard. Ambient light sensors automatically detect low light conditions to light the keyboard. 6.8 lbs. First 17 inch notebook in the world, said Jobs. Made out of aircraft-grade aluminum alloy -- hard anodized, not painted.

"Put on your shoulder harness." Two years ago Apple introduced the PowerBook G4. (Showed the Jeff Goldblum-voiced PowerBook ad spot.) Calls it "the number one lust object ... and you know what? No one has caught up with it in two years." Apple believes notebooks will eventually overtake desktop sales all together. Apple expects 35 percent of unit sales to be laptops.

Keynote imports and exports PowerPoint format. It can also export to PDF and QuickTime. Open file format; XML based. Apple wants third parties to be able to support the technology. Runs on Mac OS X 10.2. To be sold for $99. Available today. (Keynote attendees get a free copy.)

Expansion and contraction of slides not dissimilar from iPhoto. Fully anti aliased text. Alignment guide. Supports full alpha-channel graphics. Rotational capabilities. Flash support. Compositing capabilities. Built-in tables and charts. Theme support -- 12 custom themes, create your own too. Built in transitions -- wipes, crosses, peels, pivots, drops, twirls. All effects are going through OpenGL and Quartz -- 3D mosaics, cubes, tile flips and more.

Keynote: "A presentation app for when your presentation really counts ... Keynote was built for me." Ostensibly, a replacement for PowerPoint and other similar applications. Jobs has used Keynote throughout 2002. "I can assure you it's a great app," after adding that he was "a low-paid beta tester."

Safari is based on standards. Based on an HTML rendering engine that is open source. Dramatically improved performance as work begun a work ago. "Some people have a problem with open source, we think it's great." Apple will post all the improvements to the engine today. Code base started with was KHTML -- "very popular in the Linux world." Runs on Jaguar. Beta release, free download. Today.

i-Bench Tests compared IE, Netscape, Chimera, on 800MHz G4. 53.7, 33.6, 21.8, 16.6 seconds to load pages respectively. JavaScript test and load and launch times are faster as well. Integrated Google in tool bar. "Minimal" interface. New way of looking at bookmarks -- bookmarks bar and bookmarks library. Library looks like iTunes and iPhoto catalogs. Bug button reports issues to Apple if you find Web sites that don't work for some reason.

"So, buckle up." Safari: A "turbo browser for OS X." First major new browser in five years, said Jobs. Why make one? Speed -- fastest browser on the Mac. Also "Most innovative." Google right on the toolbar. "Snapback" to top level of Web sites.

"Today we're bringing it all together:" The integrates suite of applications is called iLife. iLife is being made available on Saturday, January 25th. Bundled with all new Macs. Free download of iTunes still. Free download of iPhoto 2. Free download of iPhoto 3. iDVD 3's massive size requires it to be sold rather than downloaded, but all iLife apps will be sold on store shelves for $49.

iDVD: 680,000 copies distributed. iDVD 3 announced. Again, fully integrated with other iApps. 24 new "amazing" professionally built themes that you can add your own iTunes music to and much more. iDVD also builds automatic scene selection menus based on chapter indices in iMovie projects. Apple lowering price of DVD-Rs to $3. Jobs expects them to hit $1 a piece within 24 months. "We are so far ahead of anybody, it's not funny."

iMovie 3: Over 12 million copies of original. Integrated with iPhoto, iDVD and iTunes. Added Chapters features -- number one request. Added "Ken Burns effect" and precise audio editing, you can edit within clips. New user interface. Sound effects by Skywalker Sound. "Ken Burns effect" is pan and zoom on still images. New titles, transitions and effects. iDVD is integrated -- export no longer required.

iPhoto: 6 million copies, iPhoto 2 introduced. iTunes music library visible in iPhoto now. Retouch brush and one click enhance. Retouch brush preserves color and texture, one click enhance improves white balance and more. Archive to CD and DVD. iDVD button now causes iDVD to launch. Slides will automatically transfer over.

iTunes: 18 million copies distributed. iTunes 3 was first of new generation of integrated apps.

Digital hub: "Delivered" on digital hub strategy announced two years ago: iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, iMovie. "No one else has delivered the solutions, and we have." Talks about integration between iApps, and need to rebuild apps for improved integration.

5,000 native Mac OS X apps today. Gives Apple the confidence to announce today that all new products starting today, including speed bumps, will no longer boot in 9. Classic will still work.

Final Cut Express demo given by Apple's Phil Schiller. The interface looks very similar to Final Cut Pro. It works the same way, too, according to Schiller. Over 200 effects and transitions included. Also includes color correction tools. Retails for $299. Available today.

Final Cut Pro is number one pro video app in the world as measured by units sold. Mentioned price as an issue. Solution: New product called Final Cut Express. "Lets you edit like a pro," similar to FCP but minus some pro features.

Dave Lebolt, Digidesign gave demonstration. "Everything you need to make your recordings." Can work with DSP plugins. Anything you need to finish an audio project. Used in television, broadcasting, film, music. Whole systems start at $495. Mentioned Apple's CoreAudio and CoreMIDI support as important. Demonstrated technology by remixing Smash Mouth music.

Microsoft is extending $199 deal on Office to April 7. Jobs also noted Intuit's release of QuickBooks 5.0 for Mac. Mentioned NASCAR Racing 2002 Season as "first force feedback app." Macromedia Director MX mentioned. Digidesign Pro Tools for OS X mentioned -- will ship this month.

Mac OS X: "Came of age" with Jaguar. Hit goal: 5 million active users of Mac OS X. 3.8 million added in 2002. "Confident" 9 - 10 million by 2003's end. "A few laggard apps ... we all know which one we're talking about."

iPod: "Walkman of the digital age." 14 months shipping. Apple has sold more than 600,000 iPods since launch, or 1 every minute since shipping. Number one MP3 player in US and Japan, 42 percent market share in Japan. Burton will introduce a snowboarding/skiing jacket with pouch and integrated controls on the sleeve. $499, Apple online store exclusive for this season. "Very limited edition." Also on display at Apple retail stores.

.Mac: Talked about features and capabilities of Apple's subscription-based online service. iCal, Homepage, virus protection, etc. Admits to "a bit of noise" about subscription model. 250,000 paying subscribers today, growing every month.

iCal and iSync: 1.1 million downloads of iCal since release. Has spawned third-party calendar download sites. iSync "really important strategic application" because it synchronizes calendar to PDAs, cell phones, etc. "You'll be hearing a lot more ... in the coming year."

X for Teachers: Calls them best advocates. 290,000 copies of Mac OS X have been sent out (for free) to teachers. The program has been extended to the end of March (originally to expire in December.

Apple Store Revenues: First 100 million dollar quarter. Last month quarter ended with $148 million in revenue from retail stores -- right on target. 50 percent of the computers are sold to Windows Switchers. 1.4 million visited Apple stores in December, or the equivalent to 20 Macworld Expos.

Apple Stores: 20 months ago was first opening, more than 50 across the country. 85 million people live within 15 miles of Apple store. Showed images Soho store in New York City. "One of the best buying experiences in the world." Also showed The Grove in LA -- most popular LA store.

Switcher campaign: Started last summer. Ellen Feiss gets a big yell from the crowd. Noted Switch site on Apple's site: 7.8 million unique visitors to the site since launch. 68 percent running Windows browser. Over 5 million Windows users checking out why they ought to switch. "One of the best ad campaigns we've ever run.

Largest MPEG-4 streaming event ever. Over 130 countries streaming live, including the Vatican.

"Boy are we gonna start the year at Macworld. We have two Macworlds worth of stuff for you today."

The show begins with Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." Steve Jobs enters with his customary black turtleneck and jeans.

(Excerpt) Read more at maccentral.macworld.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: apple; ilife; macintosh; macuserlist; powerbook; safari; stevejobs; windowssux
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To: caspera
B) Comparing Apple to the entire PC industry is a spurious gauge of its success.

You know what I really love about this argument of theirs, that size = proof of superiority? The only reason the PC/Intel/Windows industry is a giant behemoth today is because of two total twists of fate 23 years ago:

1) The dumb luck (for Bill Gates) that Gary Kildall of Digital Research was so arrogant and stupid that he refused to sign a non-disclosure agreement with IBM when they were practically on their knees begging him to let them use his CP/M OS on the original IBM PC. (To make it even more ironic, they were at Kildall's feet because Gates had personally recommended they go with CP/M. At first, they only wanted Gates to write up a version of BASIC they could ship with the new PC. Gates wasn't particularly interested in creating an OS from scratch anyway.)

2) After Kildall gave IBM the cold shoulder, Gates relented and, still not wanting to build an OS from scratch, instead bought the rights to something called QDOS for $50K. He then made the necessary modifications so that it would work on the PC, and renamed it MS-DOS. Then, in the other bit of pure stupid luck, IBM decided to simply license MS-DOS from Microsoft instead of buying the rights, leaving Gates free to sell it to whoever else he wanted.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Windows' technical superiority or the lack thereof. The entire Wintel behemoth is based entirely on those two strokes of plain old luck that occurred well before the first PC even shipped.

81 posted on 01/08/2003 9:37:10 AM PST by Timesink (FINISH THE DAMN GAME!!!)
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To: Timesink
Only if you believe that because more businessmen would clamor around a new $90K Mercedes, that's proof your 1974 Chevy Nova is the superior automobile.

Ah, the silly car analogy again. The Mac is the $200 dollar pencil that is sold to the minions as " the BMW of pencils – does everything other pencils do only cost a lot more – but it proves you are cool and stylish"

82 posted on 01/08/2003 9:41:58 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
You are really making a fool out of yourself. Face it. You are kid pretending to know far more than you really do. You believe the Mac propaganda and repeat it without being able to back it up. Now run along, it is pasted your bedtime.

Personal attacks do not win the debate. In fact, they disqualify you. You alleged that Glenn was, and I quote, "a poser pretending to understand computers." Glenn then provided proof that he is quite deeply involved in the IT industry. You responded by waving your hand and insulting him. Glenn thus wins under the rules of any legitimate debate organization.

83 posted on 01/08/2003 9:47:08 AM PST by Timesink (FINISH THE DAMN GAME!!!)
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To: Timesink
OpenOSX has announced that all their software works great on apples new aquafied X11!
84 posted on 01/08/2003 9:50:31 AM PST by avg_freeper
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To: Last Visible Dog; CheneyChick; Glenn
Ah, the silly car analogy again. The Mac is the $200 dollar pencil that is sold to the minions as " the BMW of pencils – does everything other pencils do only cost a lot more – but it proves you are cool and stylish"

Your off-the-scale hyperbole (And logically fallacious dismissal of the analogy which does show the meaninglessness of your prior attack) makes it almost pointless to respond, but the fact is that out here in the real world there are indeed pencils out there that cost $15-20 each, that do indeed do more than regular 29¢ pencils (drafting pencils, special art pencils and the like). And yeah, those $20 jobs do tend to look cooler and more stylish, and you can use them to just write grocery lists with, if you really want to. However, I can't think of anyone I know offhand that would use them for that purpose.

85 posted on 01/08/2003 9:56:01 AM PST by Timesink (FINISH THE DAMN GAME!!!)
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To: Timesink
1) The dumb luck (for Bill Gates) that Gary Kildall of Digital Research was so arrogant and stupid that he refused to sign a non-disclosure agreement with IBM

This very very true – but that was 20 years ago.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Windows' technical superiority or the lack thereof. The entire Wintel behemoth is based entirely on those two strokes of plain old luck that occurred well before the first PC even shipped.

WRONG!

Microsoft and the IBM PC are the reasons we had the Personal Computer revolution (and Apple has ridden the Microsoft wave). The key to the computer revolution is positioning the computer as an appliance – a means to an end. Microsoft gave us affordable software that fueled PC growth and allowed the Internet model to work.

Windows has proven itself to be technologically superior to all other competing operating systems – period. No operating systems is perfect – but Apple and IBM both failed in creating an operating systems that address the needs of both the personal computer market and the business computer market. Unix has been trying to break into the PC OS game from the beginning but it has never beyond the 25% mark throughout the PC history. Unix variants may be the future, but they sure are no the present.

Your knowledge of computer history is greatly lacking. When Gates made the deal with IBM, Apple was riding high with the Apple II (the prototype of the IBM PC, the machine that gave us the computer revolution). You left out one important point – the IBM PC became so popular because it was a better computer. Apple was in a position to be the IBM PC but they got the stupid idea to create a closed-system that did not allow third party venders and forced everybody to buy all software and hardware from one company – truly the “communist computer system”. Since the introduction of the Mac – Apple slowly has sunk into semi-obscurity – the also-ran computer system.

Apple overlooked all the market factors and trends in the computer industry and focused mainly on profits – “if we are the only vender of the hardware and software, we can make a killing”. The only thing they killed was their dominance in the computer world.

Microsoft is the computer revolution – they have done the right things at the right time. They helped give us affordable software. Microsoft is far from perfect but no other computer company has done it better.

IBM has a chance to challenge Microsoft’s dominance in the PC OS world with OS/2 – they failed. Why? It is pretty damn hard to write a complex GUI OS that addresses all the needs of the wide open computer market. The Mac keeps up mainly because they greatly limit the opinions and technologies supported by their OS.

The Wintel world has proven itself to be technically superior the Apple products year after year after year and that is why business in general pretty much has completely rejected the Apple. The Mac has its moments – sometimes it is superior to anything in the PC world but when you take in the big picture, the Mac just does not cut it.

Microsoft’s magic is their ability to see the big picture.

Apple addresses the needs of a very small niche in the computer industry – and they do a damn good job of it. But when you take in the big picture, Apple is little more than a sleek, pretty also-ran.

86 posted on 01/08/2003 10:11:09 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Timesink

Personal attacks do not win the debate.

Please tell that to Glenn (he started it)

In fact, they disqualify you. You alleged that Glenn was, and I quote, "a poser pretending to understand computers." Glenn then provided proof that he is quite deeply involved in the IT industry. You responded by waving your hand and insulting him. Glenn thus wins under the rules of any legitimate debate organization.

Nice try.

Glenn opened up by attacking me personally. I repeatedly asked him to support his bold unsupported claim and he refused and continued to hurl insults. Glenn provided no evidence that he is even involved in the IT industry and he still refuses to answer simple questions (to back up his BS). I guess you are practicing the "anything to defend my Mac" debate philosophy but if anybody reads the thread they will find your statements a wee bit lacking in the reality department. I only presented my comments about Glenn after enduring a long string of insults and repeatedly asking him to backup his bold unsupported claims.

Do you have anything to add to the debate other than "The Mac guys kicks your ass". Comments like yours are completely useless.

87 posted on 01/08/2003 10:21:42 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Timesink
but the fact is that out here in the real world there are indeed pencils out there that cost $15-20 each, that do indeed do more than regular 29¢ pencils (drafting pencils, special art pencils and the like). And yeah, those $20 jobs do tend to look cooler and more stylish, and you can use them to just write grocery lists with, if you really want to. However, I can't think of anyone I know offhand that would use them for that purpose.

I said a $200 pencil, not a $20 pencil.

IF you buy a computer to be cool, that is your trip.

88 posted on 01/08/2003 10:24:06 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Timesink
Before this debate degrades totally into questioning my linage and whether or not my mother married my father – I would like get things back on topic (because either I am curious or a glutton for punishment).

Here are some simple questions:

What makes a computer system superior?

What are the characteristics of a successful or superior operating system or computer platform?

How important is market share to the success of a computer platform?

What are the major factors you use to decide what computer system to buy?

89 posted on 01/08/2003 10:43:12 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
For years I have tried to find a way to get a Mac because I enjoy new toys but the Mac has about 0% market presence in the financial industry. I have to base my computer purchases on need, usability, and market factors – not “style” and marketing hype.

Wrong. I own one right now. (you are really making a fool out of yourself)

Are you back? I was going to spare you this humiliation, but you persist. You made both of the above statements. One of them makes you a liar. I'm just curious as to which one it is.

90 posted on 01/08/2003 11:11:22 AM PST by Glenn
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To: Timesink
I rest my case. The Mac is a novelty in the business world.

Only if you believe that because more businessmen would clamor around a new $90K Mercedes, that's proof your 1974 Chevy Nova is the superior automobile.

Sorry bud, to the business people I work with, a 90k Mercedes is no novelty.

As for laptops, they want high performance business tools that work, and specifically work with corp infrastructure.

The VC I work for, a former Mac user I might add, scrapped all of his Macs in '97 and made the shift to WINTEL. We now use all Intel boxes with WIN2K.

They have actually deducted points from startups for dragging PowerBooks in here for presentations.

Apple is a niche box serving the publishing/marketing world in business and iconoclasts in their homes. I believe in free markets and Apple has my blessing in their endevours.

But, IMO, they are no longer mainstream (if they ever were), they serve the loony left and will always be a footnote in the history of IT. Transcripts of their annual pep rallys have no place on a conservative news board, except for the purpose of ridicule and mockery.

FWIW, I was closely associated with Apple and their products from '82 till '97, when I saw the light.

91 posted on 01/08/2003 11:15:51 AM PST by TC Rider
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To: Last Visible Dog
I've looked at ThinkPads and they look good. Apple claims their battery life is 4+ hours. Is that probably just standby time?
92 posted on 01/08/2003 12:20:07 PM PST by BJClinton
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To: BJClinton
I've looked at ThinkPads and they look good. Apple claims their battery life is 4+ hours. Is that probably just standby time?

We've been buying the X-24/X-25 ThinkPads and get around 4 hours of work out of them. Battery tech is getting better all the time. Most systems will stay in standby for days on a full charge.

93 posted on 01/08/2003 1:04:48 PM PST by TC Rider
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To: TC Rider
Thanks. What kind of wireless connection do they use?
94 posted on 01/08/2003 1:23:38 PM PST by BJClinton
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To: Glenn
Are you back? I was going to spare you this humiliation, but you persist. You made both of the above statements. One of them makes you a liar. I'm just curious as to which one it is.

OK Bozo.

1. What systems did you work on in 1976? (a claim you made)

2. What "doors" did the Mac open that no other computer system could? (a claim you made)

3. You claim the Mac come in at a better price point than any other system - please provide us with details. (a claim you made)

As for your baseless liar accusation - try reading the statements again. I tried to get a Mac IN MY BUSINESS but I personally own a Mac (an older Mac).

So are you going to spew insults or answer the simple questions.

95 posted on 01/08/2003 1:29:54 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: BJClinton
What kind of wireless connection do they use?

WiFi, 802.11B and Bluetooth are available as options. We buy without and pop a PC card in as needed.

96 posted on 01/08/2003 1:31:44 PM PST by TC Rider
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To: BJClinton
I've looked at ThinkPads and they look good. Apple claims their battery life is 4+ hours. Is that probably just standby time?

I think IBM claims the battery will last 2-3 hours. Claims and reality are often different. Just remember the bigger the screen the more it will drain the battery. Maybe you should just get an MP3 player if you want to listen to music on a plane. I wish the airlines would embrace the power receptacles so we can just plug in our laptops (I even have an airplane adapter - but I don't usually fly first class).

97 posted on 01/08/2003 1:34:35 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: TC Rider
We've been buying the X-24/X-25 ThinkPads and get around 4 hours of work out of them. Battery tech is getting better all the time. Most systems will stay in standby for days on a full charge.

4 hours - that is great. I see on the IBM website that they claim the X-30 can go 8 hours on battery. Funny, they don't push battery life with the A series (the model I have)

98 posted on 01/08/2003 1:39:49 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
1. What systems did you work on in 1976? (a claim you made)

IBM System/3 Model 12. I had one of the first in the country.

2. What "doors" did the Mac open that no other computer system could? (a claim you made)

I did mention price point, right? Professional video editing workstations can cost 10 times what a Mac does. There are a lot of professionals using Macs with products like Final Cut Pro on very big name movies.

3. You claim the Mac come in at a better price point than any other system - please provide us with details. (a claim you made)

See number 2.

As for your baseless liar accusation - try reading the statements again. I tried to get a Mac IN MY BUSINESS but I personally own a Mac (an older Mac).

That's not what you said. Quote "IN MY BUSINESS" if you see it. My accusation had one hell of a basis.

My point still stands. You come in here and piss all over the thread about a machine you have ZERO experience with and know nothing about because you don't like the commercials?

So are you going to spew insults or answer the simple questions.

I'm done with you. You're a dilettante.

99 posted on 01/08/2003 1:44:52 PM PST by Glenn
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To: Glenn
I did mention price point, right? Professional video editing workstations can cost 10 times what a Mac does. There are a lot of professionals using Macs with products like Final Cut Pro on very big name movies.

You can do video editing on a PC for far less money (and with for more options) using software that is arguably better than Final Cut Pro (Adobe Premiere being one of them). So in this case, clearly the Mac does not open doors other systems cannot (and the Mac cost more so you can forget about the price point).

The question still stands. If you think the Mac is the only platform that can do video editing or the Mac does video editing for a lower cost point you are flat-out wrong.

That's not what you said. Quote "IN MY BUSINESS" if you see it. My accusation had one hell of a basis.

Yeah the basis is you like to spew insults. Read my statement bozo – “I enjoy new toys but the Mac has about 0% market presence in the financial industry” The financial industry is my business. Hint: why would I care about market presence in the financial industry for my home machine? Clearly you like to pick fights.

My point still stands. You come in here and piss all over the thread about a machine you have ZERO experience with and know nothing about because you don't like the commercials?

You are hopeless. Debating with you is impossible. You are Mac fanatic that will insult anybody that does not agree with you – this is not a debate about a technology – this is crap. If you ever what to debate the reasons why the Mac has pretty much zero presence in the business world, let us know.

100 posted on 01/08/2003 2:15:58 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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