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To: John O
I must disagree. Christian doctrine deems us fallen, which is quite different from evil. The fallen can get up and right themselves. If we were evil, we would have no chance at redemption.

That's the main reason why Christians are abjured to condemn only deeds -- sins -- and not the persons who commit them -- sinners. It all holds together nicely, if we remember to retain our humility.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason:
http://www.palaceofreason.com

53 posted on 12/31/2002 10:45:05 AM PST by fporretto
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To: fporretto
I must disagree. Christian doctrine deems us fallen, which is quite different from evil. The fallen can get up and right themselves. If we were evil, we would have no chance at redemption.

Fallen, being in the state of disobeying God and having the nature to disobey God, is no different from evil.

Lets start by defining evil. Evil is "morally wrong or bad" according to websters. Sin, disobeying God, is morally wrong and bad. Sinners, those who commit sin, are committing moral wrongness. They are morally wrong as they are fulfilling their nature to disobey God.

The bible says all have sinned. Therefore all are morally wrong. All man is evil. And left to ourselves we are beyond redemption. We cannot save ourselves.

Fortunately Jesus draws all men unto Himself and by his blood washes away our sin nature.

(I don't have the time to add in the scriptural proof of this. Perhaps another day)

GSA(P)

60 posted on 12/31/2002 11:41:38 AM PST by John O
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To: fporretto
I disagree. Christianity deems us totally depraved.
81 posted on 12/31/2002 5:53:22 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: fporretto
The fallen can get up and right themselves

This is exactly the opposite of what Christianity teaches. It is virtually impossible for man to recover from the fallen state apart from Christ. "All of our righteousness is a filthy rags." We are powerless, apart from Christ.

103 posted on 12/31/2002 11:13:48 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: fporretto; RnMomof7
I must disagree. Christian doctrine deems us fallen, which is quite different from evil. The fallen can get up and right themselves. If we were evil, we would have no chance at redemption.

The Bible deems us 'desperately wicked,' not just 'fallen'--which does not imply, by any stretch, that we can right ourselves.

Care to weigh in, Mom?

131 posted on 01/01/2003 1:40:04 PM PST by The Grammarian
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To: fporretto
I must disagree. Christian doctrine deems us fallen, which is quite different from evil.

While we are splitting hairs:

G-d created man "very good." Man is fallen, but the reason "fallen" is a problem is because it causes men to be evil, twisted, improper, perverse, whatever word you want to use. The results are that every imagination of man is evil continually (Genesis 6:5). True, this was a resultant state not a created state, but it is still our state without the influence of G-d in our lives and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The difficulty is that evil men can accomplish good things also. But their hearts are still evil until regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Shalom.

175 posted on 01/03/2003 6:51:32 AM PST by ArGee
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