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1 posted on 12/13/2002 9:31:46 AM PST by Destro
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To: *balkans
bump
2 posted on 12/13/2002 9:32:07 AM PST by Destro
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To: Destro
Well, maybe some religions change over time. But two of the tenets of Islam are: a) Muhammed was the last prophet, and there will be no more; b) The Quran must be strictly observed, and there is no such thing as interpreting or even translating it.

As far as violence is concerned, Islam has been violent ever since it began, with intervals of quiet only when they are regrouping for more violence.
3 posted on 12/13/2002 10:20:15 AM PST by Cicero
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To: Destro
The reports of acts of benevolent Muslims throughout history have been greatly exaggerated...
4 posted on 12/13/2002 10:24:57 AM PST by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton
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To: Destro
Religions change over time but is Islam an inherently violent religion?


The problem is Islam hasn't changed. And therein lies the problem many of us have with it. It is still mired in the 10th century way of thinking.
5 posted on 12/13/2002 10:28:03 AM PST by Valin
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To: Destro
The problem here is not about individual religions being violent or peaceful. The problem is about HATE. Those who control religion and some who participate in religion are infused with a burning hatred for others.

Religion has killed more men than all the diseases and disasters throughout the history of mankind. It still comes down to the old "us and them" situation. Mankind has displayed suspicious and belligerent behavior toward anyone not classified as "us" ever since he came down from the trees and moved into the caves.

The solution to our current day problems is for men to realize that we are all the same animal. We seek the same things out of life... sustenance, security, safety, pleasure, happiness, etc. Religions of this world seperate us. They do NOT bring us together.

It's so non-sensical to me at times...

"My god has a different name than yours, so I hate you."

"My prophet said this and that... your savior said such and such, so I hate you."

It's insanity, my friends. We've spent so many years trying to eliminate racial prejudices and hatreds, yet we still tolerate religious prejudices and hatreds. Why is that? Religion... Religion foists upon us this plan of action, this insane behavior, this shameful basis that many use to kill, maim, and destroy their innocent fellow creatures.

How can anyone actually be so insane as to believe that strapping 40 lbs of high explosive to his body and blowing up a busload of innocent children is the right thing to do in the eyes of his god? How can anyone believe that others who don't believe the same dogma and doctrine are in some way inferior? How can anyone say that their god has claimed that they... of the billions who've live and died on this earth... are the "chosen" ones. It's INSANITY.

WAKE THE HELL UP!

Regards,

V.T. Eric Layton
***Tempus Fugits***
vtel57@softhome.net
6 posted on 12/13/2002 10:31:38 AM PST by vtel57
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To: Destro
Religions do not change. People may change the way they perceive or understand their own devotion to a religion but the principles and laws of any particular religion cannot change.

If we take islam to be a religion -which it is not - then it is a "religion" prone and dedicated (by its own founder) to violence and a utopianist eschatological view of history (similar to Marxism). The fact that so many muslims want to live peacefully does not change the fact that the ideology itself clearly calls for domination and annihilation of non muslims. Therefore muslims who demonstrate peaceful behavior and claim their wish for peace are either betraying the tenets of islam or are deliberately misleading others by their claims of peaceful coexistence.

Obviously, Bin Laden, his backers, and others who are anti capitalist and anti West are exploiting the muslim's world's frustration and disgust with what they perceive is the West's (secular) decadence and ability to manipulate the world's culture and economy.

14 posted on 12/13/2002 11:06:14 AM PST by eleni121
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To: Destro
Islam has its periods of violence and its periods of tolerance. The Ottomans gave refuge to the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain in 1492.

This is such rubbish and is taken straight from left wing revisionist history permeating universities these days. The Ottomans - Muslim Turks - while allegedly "assisting" Jews in relocating to the Balkans and Middle east - were enslaving and destroying the Christian world of the the same area! Remember: Asia Minor (today's turkey) was once completely Christian. Today there are less than a couple thousand Christians left.

16 posted on 12/13/2002 11:11:36 AM PST by eleni121
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To: Destro
Is Islam an inherently violent religion?

Well, rather than look at its history, let's look at its foundational principles. What does it teach?

The Koran explicitly authorizes proselityzing at swordpoint, with death for those who refuse. It also specifies the spreading of Islam by military conquest. These commands appear without subsequent mitigating language.

On this basis it becomes clear that there is no equivalency between Christianity and Islam. No reading of Christian texts can amount to a Divine mandate for violence in the service of the Gospel.

Hmmm... it seems to be an easy call to make...

18 posted on 12/13/2002 11:15:08 AM PST by Oberon
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To: Destro
Is Islam an inherently violent religion?

How would we know? We're too busy ducking and it's not because of Christians, Hindus, Jews, or Buddhists.

30 posted on 12/13/2002 11:47:05 AM PST by xJones
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To: Destro
Which stands for the real Islam? The question is not just unanswerable, it is irrelevant. The real issue is not the essence of an abstraction--who can say what is the real Christianity or the real Judaism?--but the actions of actual Muslims in the world today.

No, it is completely answerable and totally relevant. The real issue is, what do the religious texts of the respective faiths teach? Therein you will find the "real Islam" and the "real Judaism" and the "real Christianity." The actions of adherents are what could be deemed irrelevant. Either professing Muslims, Christians or Jews follow the teachings of their faiths, or they do not. The texts should dictate their actions, not the other way around.

33 posted on 12/13/2002 11:49:43 AM PST by agrace
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To: Destro
Is Islam an inherently violent religion? A debate on this subject has received much attention in the United States. The question is absurd. It is like asking whether Christianity is a religion of peace. Well, there is Francis of Assisi. And there is the Thirty Years' War. Which do you choose?

Stupid. As are all the anti-Christian bigots littering this thread with their knee-jerk reactions.

Islam has passages directing its followers to do just what they are doing: Kill the infidel indiscriminately.

Anyone who likens Judeo-Christian scripture to that is simply dishonest. The only time Jews were directed to violence it was a direct and specific command of God against a specific target. However much Jews might have hated Gentiles, they never killed them indiscriminately.

When you get to Christianity, you find the Christian scripures are the polar opposite of the Koran where violence is concerned.

As to the behavior of self-proclaimed followers, that is all over the map. Just because David Duke calls himself a republican does not make every republican a racist.

37 posted on 12/13/2002 12:17:04 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: Destro
Which stands for the real Islam? The question is not just unanswerable, it is irrelevant.

...and what makes it "irrelevant" is the fact that the textbooks of same, primarily the koran, are very clear, i.e., did you know that there are 123 verses in the koran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

- Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96). Maybe this means 72 virgins - BWAHAHAHAHA!!

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).

-Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

In other words, the only thing "relevant" here is that islam is out to destroy all that is non-islamic. Additionally, don't give me any crap about taking anything "out of context", because these things are mere lists of rules, and each rule stands on its own!

Stay vigilent, stay armed, and never trust a Muslim!

40 posted on 12/13/2002 12:43:40 PM PST by mil-vet
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