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Intel's Grove warns of the end of Moore's Law
The Inquirer ^ | 12/11/2002 | Paul Hales

Posted on 12/11/2002 7:48:14 AM PST by GeneD

One of the major technical headaches facing chipmaker Intel is the leaking of current from inactive processors, company chairman Andy Grove told an audience at International Electron Devices Meeting in San Francisco yesterday.

"Current is becoming a major factor and a limiter on how complex we can build chips," said Grove. He said the company’ engineers "just can’t get rid of" power leakage.

The problem of leakage threatens the future validity of Moores Law. As chips become more powerful and draw more power, leakage tends to increase. The industry is used to power leakage rates of up to fifteen per cent, but chips constructed of increasing numbers of transistors can suffer power leakage of up to 40 per cent said Grove. In chips made up of a billion transistors may leak between 60 and 70 Watts of power, he warned. The power is largely dissipated as heat causing cooling problems for powerful chips.

While Intel is seeking ways to design chips with multiple cores with improved design and better insulators, Grove suggested that Moore Law regarding the doubling of transistor densities every couple of years will be redundant by the end of the decade. Chip makers will have to make more efficient use of the transistor in order to deliver ever increasing performance, he suggested.

Grove also addressed the diminished likelihood of an upturn in the chip industry in the near future. "Over the course of the past year (the industry) has been bounding along on the bottom," he said, but he warned that the threat of a "war" on Iraq doesn’t bode well for the future employment rate in the US and a may spark a consequent "meltdown" in some South American economies.

The industry "was operating, in retrospect, way ahead of the underlying demand," he said in his keynote speech to the conference. "The excess of the latter 1990s was so much bigger than previous excesses," he confessed.

Grove also later warned that the trend of migrating chip manufacturing to far eastern fabs could shift the balance eastwards. "It is easy to project," he said, "that the interdependence becomes more one-sided, with an adverse impact on our educational system because so much of the university funding comes from industry. There is a spiral there in the wrong direction."

The trend also carried "huge" implications for defence, he warned.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: andygrove; cpus; intelcorporation; mooreslaw; personalcomputers
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1 posted on 12/11/2002 7:48:14 AM PST by GeneD
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To: GeneD
The problem of leakage threatens the future validity of Moores Law.

Have they tried "Depends"?

2 posted on 12/11/2002 7:52:25 AM PST by Drango
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To: GeneD
That's OK. The market is saturated anyway.
"Bigger, better, faster" has reached the point of diminishing returns on investment for most consumers.
The once ballyhooed "new economy" of high-tech electronic microchips have become just another mature commodity sector of the same old "buggy-whip" economy we've always had. The hypesters are gonna hafta find a different mantra to chant. Y2K is OVER.
3 posted on 12/11/2002 7:54:29 AM PST by Willie Green
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To: GeneD
There has been a rule-of-thumb since the first transistor logic circuits, that faster is hotter. Hence the water and liquid nitrogen cooled supercomputers.
4 posted on 12/11/2002 7:56:11 AM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Yeah. I've always wondered why PC makers didn't fit the boxes with input fans, behind a filter, rather than exhaust fans. Input fans could force more air into the box, and also create positive internal air pressure, keeping out dust that now migrates into the boxes because they're under negative pressure.
5 posted on 12/11/2002 8:01:52 AM PST by aShepard
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To: GeneD
Moore's Law assumes that when the time comes, some bright engineer will invent something new. If Intel doesn't do it, someone else will. It's an extension of Arthur Clark's law, that anything you can imagine will eventually become science, and faster than you think. Today's magic is tomorrow's science.

Of course, there's always Murphy's Law. . . .
6 posted on 12/11/2002 8:08:47 AM PST by Cicero
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To: Drango
I thought that was Lahey's law?
7 posted on 12/11/2002 8:10:29 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: aShepard
I'm a PC maker, and I always do. There are several aluminum cases -- I'm familaiar with ones made by Lian-Li. They have several input fans with easily cleanable dust filters. The last PC I built with one of these cases had two multi-speed input fans, one case exhaust fan, two power supply fans, plus the CPU fans.

I suspect that sometime in the next ten years, economics will force a look at multiple processors. We have already off-loaded video and sound processing. The most pressing current need is for a high performance disk storage system for PCs.

I hope we move away from the idea that everything has to run on a single chip.

8 posted on 12/11/2002 8:11:14 AM PST by js1138
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To: aShepard
"Yeah. I've always wondered why PC makers didn't fit the boxes with input fans, behind a filter, rather than exhaust fans."

Subscribe to Maximum PC and you will see home-brew PCs running overclocked and using active water cooling of CPU, memory, and video chips. One I saw had a water pump, a huge radiator and multiple fans to blow air thru the radiator. The box was clear plastic as was the water tank. I thought it'd look better with some goldfish swimming in the tank.

The possibilities of a leak make me wince.

--Boris

9 posted on 12/11/2002 8:13:32 AM PST by boris
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To: js1138
>> The market is saturated anyway.

Right. At some point the average home user has all they need in processor power, and will upgrade their machines 'when they break'.

But the need for processor power increases are still operating elsewhere. Like freeper servers as an example.

So multi-processor systems of various types will provide the speed increases, and multiple cpu cores on a chip, at a lower speed per chip will likely be the future for home users.

But you need a fine grained OS that supports many light weight threads which is going to be the next move in OS technology. Many of the 'NIXes already do this, Sun Solaris is one OS, with the penguin coming on strong.

snooker
10 posted on 12/11/2002 8:15:12 AM PST by snooker
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To: GeneD
Unfortunately operating systems and programs have followed "Gates' Law" which states "No matter how fast you make the computer and how much memory you put in it, Windows will make a n operating system that slows it down to a crawl."

Remember when Windows 3.1 was on six floppy disks? Now Windows XP is on TWO CD's and takes up 1.5 GIGA-bytes of hard drive space. And it STILL takes 3 minutes to boot up!
11 posted on 12/11/2002 8:15:37 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: Willie Green
"That's OK. The market is saturated anyway."

Yeah; IBM thought the world could use maybe two of its early mainframes.

New technologies will get us past this bump in the road. You ain't seen nuthin' yet...in terms of speed or capacity.

Eventually your PDA will contain more raw computing power than every single computer currently on the planet.

--Boris

12 posted on 12/11/2002 8:15:40 AM PST by boris
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To: Willie Green
""Bigger, better, faster" has reached the point of diminishing returns on investment for most consumers. The once ballyhooed "new economy" of high-tech electronic microchips have become just another mature commodity sector of the same old "buggy-whip" economy we've always had."

100% correct, my friend. For the vast majority of PC users, speed has outstripped the need for speed and is now merely a gamer's brag. And the market has indeed matured, and with such maturity, the expansion now is in the direction of digital control of convenience.

For instance, all those "homes of the future" you saw on various TV reports with virtually everything in them being computer-controller are now going to become much more common, as ordinary devices become microprocessor-controlled. New micropchip applications are being marketed to take advantage of manufacturing capacity now that the PC market is mature.

We just bought a small electric space heater for the living room - a nifty device to take the occasional chill out of the room. These ceramic space heaters normally come with a thermostat and a blower knob. No more. THIS one is microchip-controlled with an LCD display AND a REMOTE CONTROL. It's only a very small step from there to an entire houseful of these heaters, all controlled by one remote (radio signals over house wiring). That would then give you the ultimate in zoned heating, with each room as its own zone.

Dishwashers are now all microchip. Ranges and many fridges are, too. Once you make the appliances WORK under chip control, it's only a very small step to network them. The company that comes up with the easiest-to-use networking method will make a nice piece of change in the Chipping Of Convenience.

I used to laugh at the ridiculous number of things that went to chip control, but it's no longer funny. There is an actual good reason for it, which is the use of capacity to expand marketing targets.

5 years from now, we'll see chip control of virtually anything that plugs in. Power tools, lamps, toasters, you name it.

Michael

13 posted on 12/11/2002 8:15:47 AM PST by Wright is right!
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To: Cicero
Moore's Law assumes that when the time comes, some bright engineer will invent something new. If Intel doesn't do it, someone else will.

Moore's law shows the folly of projecting exponential growth. Nothing can continue to double forever. Exponential growth is a popular tool for scaremongers such as population explosion, oil shortages, and even global warming. Of course the electronics world was gonna run into physical limits to Moore's Law.

14 posted on 12/11/2002 8:16:17 AM PST by Always Right
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To: GeneD
By focusing on increased processor speed, and ignoring memory speed, Intel has painted itself into a corner.

Get memory speed back up to equal that of the processor, and we can really move forward again.

I've even heard bragging about an L3 cache for goodness sake!! Talk about headed in the wrong direction.

15 posted on 12/11/2002 8:20:09 AM PST by laotzu
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To: Wright is right!
The company that comes up with the easiest-to-use networking method will make a nice piece of change in the Chipping Of Convenience.

I don't know. I mean if you have to load the dishwasher anyways, is it really that much harder to press the button to start it. I just don't see people lining up to automate their homes. It is easier to turn on the light when you enter the room than it is to try to find the remote to turn on the light. The area of growth will be in home entertainment, not automation.

16 posted on 12/11/2002 8:20:28 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Remember when Windows 3.1 was on six floppy disks? Now Windows XP is on TWO CD's and takes up 1.5 GIGA-bytes of hard drive space. And it STILL takes 3 minutes to boot up!

Yeah, but instead of just Solitaire, Windows now comes with Freecell, Hearts, Minesweeper, and Spider Solitaire. Progress ain't cheap.

17 posted on 12/11/2002 8:23:30 AM PST by ChuxsterS
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Too true - programmers take advantage of super hardware in order to write sloppy apps instead of efficient ones. A couple of years ago I downloaded an OS with a dialer and a web browser along with a few other areas of functionality - it all fit on one floppy...
18 posted on 12/11/2002 8:26:41 AM PST by trebb
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To: GeneD
Chips are two dimensional. The future of Moore's law will be in figuring out a way to go three-dimensional.
19 posted on 12/11/2002 8:27:29 AM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: GeneD
I believe we should get Gore in on this. Since he had the know-how to invent the internet, surely this would be a walk in the park for him.
20 posted on 12/11/2002 8:27:51 AM PST by cdefreese
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