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To: ninenot
This article is chock full of logical fallicies:

1. There is no connection between the cause and the effects. I could just as easily blame all of the statistics that were mentioned on the rise of feminism or Johnson's Great Society.

2. Only United States statistics are mentioned. Vatican II wasn't tailored to fit Americans. I could easily provide some rather rosy statistics on the rise of Catholicism in Africa.

3. There is no analysis of what would have happened had Vatican II not been enacted. I suspect that things may have been somewhat worse in the US.

4. And most importantly there is no discussion of the biblical basis for Vatican II - only a dry statistical discussion.
14 posted on 12/11/2002 6:36:56 AM PST by kidd
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To: kidd
Let's examine logical fallacies: you state "I could easily provide some rather rosy statistics on the rise of Catholicism in Africa." without stating that the African Bishops have not ordained homosexuals wholesale; and without stating that the African Bishops have been perfectly willing to address SIN (all of the possibilities) on a regular basis.

You further forget to mention Europe, which shares many pre-existing and post-traumatic syndromes with the USA.

You state: "And most importantly there is no discussion of the biblical basis for Vatican II - only a dry statistical discussion."

What??? Buchanan's editorial is based on a statistical survey, not a theological treatise.

Tell you what: YOU provide the theology. We await.

29 posted on 12/11/2002 7:31:56 AM PST by ninenot
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To: kidd; Diago; narses; Loyalist; BlackElk; american colleen; saradippity; Polycarp; Dajjal; ...
1. There is no connection between the cause and the effects.

That wasn't the purpose of the article. Pat Buchanan, and many other writers, have already drawn the cause-and-effect connection many times in the past. The "Index" referred to here is a statistical summary, and Catholics need to come to grips with what it is telling us.

2. Only United States statistics are mentioned.

It's a huge misuderstanding to believe that the Church is doing just great in other parts of the world. It's not. Europe has been devastated. The statistics there are much, much worse than in the United States. Anyone can make up numbers for Africa, but the reality is that the continent is facing devastation, while the Western world runs away and abandons the obligations it took on. Africa even took the lead in the scandals that are now rocking the Church.

Vatican II wasn't tailored to fit Americans.

Quite to the contrary, Vatican II was a triumph of the American version of Catholicism. John Courtney Murray and his theories of separation of church and state triumphed over the teachings of Popes Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, Saint Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII.

3. There is no analysis of what would have happened had Vatican II not been enacted.

It's ludicrous to criticize a daily newspaper column for not contemplating alternate scenarios. Read the statistics and decide for yourself if things could possibly have been worse. Most are down by 90% to 99%. There just isn't too much room there to squeeze in a worse scenario. As far as the US is concerned, the only worse scenario would be what has happened to the Catholic Church in Europe.

4. And most importantly there is no discussion of the biblical basis for Vatican II - only a dry statistical discussion.

Do you also criticize the "Little Black Book of Communism" for only discussing statistics and not evaluating the philosophical roots of Marxism? This "Index of Catholic Indicators" serves a useful purpose, just like a financial report serves a useful purpose for a company. When a company reports that sales have dropped 90%, do you wonder whether there might have been an even worse plan that might have turned out even worse? When reading about the 100 million deaths documented in the "Little Black Book of Communism," do you wonder if even more people could have been murdered had communism not appeared on the scene?

"By their fruits you shall know them." This is a crop report on the fruits of Vatican II.

39 posted on 12/11/2002 7:48:54 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: kidd; ultima ratio
There is no connection between the cause and the effects. I could just as easily blame all of the statistics that were mentioned on the rise of feminism or Johnson's Great Society.

Here's a clue: the following did not happen before Vatican II. You cannot blame this on Johnson's Great Society, changing weather patterns, or the decline of country music:


Cazimer Wikiera, left, of Rome seeks permission from the Rev. Fred Daley to videotape a special holiday Mass Sunday for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered communities at St. Francis DeSales Church in Utica. Daley denied him permission, citing privacy concerns.

65 posted on 12/11/2002 8:38:26 AM PST by Zviadist
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