Spinal Manipulation May Benefit Asthma Patients

chiro.org ^ | Frank M. Painter, D.C.

[Balata]

Hey bvw, what’s your point?

Your side won a small victory and you are still exhibiting signs of being a big bully.

Perhaps you need to learn to accept small victories with dignity and live to fight the big battles another day.

Krod posted a thread about Asthma, along with some research. Apparently discostu has a personal interest in this and requested some specific and IMO very reasonable information. Krod, you, or anyone else on your side of the argument could have posted the requested information but didn’t.


Discostu was asking for an apple and Krod keep giving him oranges. Discostu wasn’t looking for oranges, he was looking for apples. Then I gave him an apple and you come along and complain because Discostu doesn’t like oranges. That makes no sense.

It seems to me in the battle of ideas, if you are arguing with someone that has an open mind, the chance for at least a small victory is there. Discostu has an open mind and accepted the requested information.

Your tactics, on the other hand, can be repulsive and lead to the opposition closing you out completely. IMO not a wise tactic if you want to win your battles.

P.S. Knock it off with the dang monkeys. ;-)

FReegards...Balata

[discostu]

Your waste of bandwidth 215 is the ultimate proof that feelings are not scientific proof. Because feelings are still being investigated by science. When was the last time you heard about science investigating the cubic centimeter, the pound per square inch, or the percentage point? That's right, never. Why? because those are measurements, those are how science defines it's investigation. Feelings are BEING investigated and are therefore NOT MEASUREMENTS and therefore NOT PROOF. Someday we will probably have the whole thing mapped out ande feeling will be a measurement, you should fear that day because at that point you will be scientifically defined as a whiner and mama's boy. But that day is not today, and until that day comes feelings cannot be scientific proof. Now really, DROP IT, WALK AWAY, YOU CAN'T WIN, BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. So stop embarassing yourself.

[bvw]

"Discostu was asking for an apple and Krod keep giving him oranges. Discostu wasn’t looking for oranges, he was looking for apples. Then I gave him an apple and you come along and complain because Discostu doesn’t like oranges."

In that analogy, it is like Discostu claims oranges aren't fruit -- not just that he only wants apples to satisfy himself. Further he wants oranges banned from being labeled fruit.

You gave him what he could have easily found himself. And by that, supported his denials of any merit in the science of the original. Yet there is science and scientific method in the original study, and it's decent and worthwhile.

This is a very ancient argument. It has been argued and won by my side every time. However the losers have contributed greatly, mightily, and all in all, honorably. Only their blinding pride caused their eventual failure -- but it does so every time.

[Balata]

In that analogy, it is like Discostu claims oranges aren't fruit -- not just that he only wants apples to satisfy himself. Further he wants oranges banned from being labeled fruit.

Like? What do you mean like? I guess you have to be a mind reader when your reading comprehension skills are so poor? What difference does it make to you what his reasons are for not asking for or accepting oranges. The apples he was asking for may allow him to accept Chiropractic for the treatment of Asthma (oranges), which he had a personal interest in. Thus, he may end up accepting both apples and oranges. After all, he already stated he accepted Chiropractic for many back conditions.

You gave him what he could have easily found himself. And by that, supported his denials of any merit in the science of the original.

Bunk. Get real.

This is a very ancient argument. It has been argued and won by my side every time. However the losers have contributed greatly, mightily, and all in all, honorably. Only their blinding pride caused their eventual failure -- but it does so every time.

Every time? Get over yourself. This proves you are a legend in you own mind. Wisdom comes with years. Good luck.

FReegards...Balata

[discostu]

whine whine whine whine whine. That's all you do. I asked SPECIFICALLY for PFT results including peak flow and blood oxygen percentage, the COLD HARD SCIENCE. The original post presented ZERO evidence, read it. Yes I could have found it, but it's not my job. The person making the assertion needs to prove it. I could, if I wanted to, find everything on FR without FR as could you, but we don't we come here instead.

Your side couldn't win an argument with Rommel laying out the plan. FEELINGS ARE NOT SCIENCE, AND THEREFORE ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. If there's anybody with blind pride in this argument it's the guy insisting feelings are scientific evidence but who still can't tell us what the measurement scale is. No measurement scale, not evidence. Just that simple. That's how it's always been, that's how it's alway gonna be. Get over it.

[bvw]

You echo, very closely, the thing that was both a strength and folly of Lord Kelvin, and his too encompansing regard for numbers and numbers alone as objects of reverence:

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."

Lord Kelvin, though, also had a poet's sense of beauty, and did not completely outlaw science that was had without a numeric scale attached. Kelvin said:

"Mathematics is the only good metaphysics."

This links him to the cadre of students that Pythagoras established -- they learned too well from Pythagoras's own overly zealous love of pure numbers. When Pythagoras came to his own inescapable proof-discovery that the square root of two could not be expressed as intergers, his own zealous students threw him into the sea to drown. To the Pythagoreans irrational numbers were a heresy deserving death.

Like Pythagoras before him, Lord Kelvin's love of truth and beauty allowed him to go beyond the shackles an over zealous love of numbers would have held him in. But many students and followers-on did not and do not have that mental agility and commitment to seeing the truth when it disagrees with them.

For example, Lord Kelvin welcomed challenges:

"When you are face to face with a difficulty, you are up against a discovery."

Yet he could be trapped in his own day's limited cast of knowledge too, in a over-stated sense of his own understanding:

"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

"X-rays will prove to be a hoax."

[bvw]

"expressed as intergers" => "expressed as a ratio of two integers". The square root of two is only approximately seven fifths.

[discostu]

You said yourself that feelings are SUBJECTIVE. Science is OBJECTIVE. Someday we will be able to OBJECTIVELY measure feelings, we'll know that day has come because there will be a unit of measure named to measure them in. Until then they ARE NOT science. Which isn't to say they aren't important, I've said many times (and you've IGNORED it every time) that feelings are important. But
they
are
not
scientific
evidence
.

[bvw]

There is a road in the measuring wood I could go down regarding the "objectivity" of measured things. Anyone desiring a tour down that way might read up on Dirac's musings on big G. That "constant" of gravity.

Another example is electromagtic spectra ... is the dielectric constant of empty space a constant? If not, why then emission spectra -- any spectra will vary as measured.

Of course both big G and the dielectric constant are assumed to be constant, but ... at the least one should be intellectually ready to release them from being so, if the evidence men become aware of says so.

That gets me to what some might call metaphysics -- I don't, quite -- the road of "objectivity" at some point merges into the road of the observed, and thus the observer.

What brings the one real instance of all the infinite possiblities of the Schrodinger wave equation? Why only an observation. Only a sanse. Only a feeling.

The whole of the universe's existance is thus, in that "sense" -- subjective. At some deep level there are no objective measurements.

At least one shadow on the wall has suggested so to me.

[A CA Guy]

I have asthma and can tell you my back gets tight during episodes of wheezing.
I have a great chiropractor friend and have seen a benefit to using spine manipulation to release the chest up.

It helps quite a bit, I think.

[ofMagog]

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[discostu]

Blah blah blah. Feelings still aren't scientific evidence and you're STILL wasting time and bandwidth. A CC is a CC is a CC. A PSI is a PSI is a PSI. Percentage point is a percentage point is a percentage point. And feeling better is unmeasurable and therefore not scientific proof. GET OVER IT.

[bvw]

How about pain? Answer two simple questions, if you would. (1) Is their a medical science of pain? (2) What is the measurement scale of pain?

[bvw]

That's a comment on my "bandwidth wasting", or something else? (And those pics are low bandwidth pics, as pics go -- and carefully selected for relevancy, btw.)

[discostu]

RED HERRING.

That has nothing to do with the question at hand. The question at hand is proving the effectiveness of chiropractic treatments on asthmatics. While asthma can occassional be painful the condition is not generally a matter of pain, but simply malfunctioning lungs.

Here's a question on topic: how can I prove a person feels 10% better after treatment X? I can easily prove their lung capacity has increased by 10%. Even easier to prove their peak flow has increased by 10%. The equipment to prove someone's blood oxygen has increased by 10% is expensive but very easy to use. But how can you prove an asthmatic (or anyone for that matter) objectively feels 10% better?

[Chancellor Palpatine]

More chiropractic quackery.

[krodriguesdc]

yeah - I think we should bomb iraq and iran and anybody else who tries to get tough with us, but I think we are going to suffer greatly for it...

this is as serious as it gets and I am praying to God...

[krodriguesdc]

yeah I find it helps me as well...

and when people tell me that I'll have to go for the rest of my life I answer with yeah, you go to a dentist to care for your teeth for the rest of your life, too...

my spine is important, and I will take of it with a chiropractor - FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE - THANK YOU...

naysayers be damned!