Posted on 11/13/2002 10:28:24 AM PST by dark_lord
Yet readers of the articles proclaiming a shortage would be perplexed if they also knew that Microsoft only hires 2% of its applicants for software positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry. Software employers, large or small, across the nation, concede that they receive huge numbers of re'sume's but reject most of them without even an interview. One does not have to be a ``techie'' to see the contradiction here. A 2% hiring rate might be unremarkable in other fields, but not in one in which there is supposed to be a ``desperate'' labor shortage. If employers were that desperate, they would certainly not be hiring just a minuscule fraction of their job applicants.
Here is a table showing the actual number of job applicants hired for a variety of companies:
| American Management Systems | 2% |
| Broderbund Software | 1% |
| Cisco | 5% |
|
|
|
| Cohesive | 2% |
| Datascan | 5% |
| Deltanet | 4% |
| ECbridges | 2% |
| Flashpoint Technology | 2 to 5% |
| R.D. Raab | 1% |
|
|
|
| H.L. Yoh | 4% |
| Inktomi | less than 5% |
| Microsoft | 2% |
| Net Perceptions | 2% |
| New England firm | 1% |
| Qualcomm | 4.5% |
|
|
|
| Radiant Systems | under 1% |
| Red Hat Linux | under 1% |
| Tangis | under 1% |
In other words, there is no shortage of ``bodies,'' i.e. there is no shortage of experienced computer programmers. The problem is that employers are not willing to hire them. Employers are only willing to hire from three narrow categories of programmers:
* New or recent (within a few years of graduation) college graduates, who have cheaper salaries. Note, though, that even among new computer science graduates, fewer than half are hired as programmers.
* Foreign nationals on work visas, who have cheaper salaries.
* A relatively small number of experiencedprogrammers who have background in certain highly-specialized software technologies.
Dr. Matloff says: "Hiring managers have often complained to me that their firm's Human Resources Dept. screens out resume's of applicants who the managers feel qualified. HR apparently decides to screen out the applicants who are too expensive or too old - and then complains that there is a ``shortage'' of applicants...There does seem to be coordination among the HR departments of the various firms. The HR departments of the major firms in Silicon Valley hold monthly meetings, at which the firms exchange information with each other on policy, salaries and so on. (Personal communication from Paul Donnelly, IEEE-USA, June 30, 2000.)...All the firms hire an extremely low percentage of their programming applicants, due to the fact that all the firms overstate job requirements...Almost all firms aim for applicants having three to seven years (or two to eight) of experience."
He says: "It seems safe to say that experience may not be the most valued commodity, according to a survey of 200 IT managers nationwide conducted by InformationWeek Research in May. Though age wasn't specified in the question, only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half-46%-preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."
Of course you neglect to mention that it is pretty much only FOREIGN companies that display this tendency. It was demonstrated in post 250 in the "old thread".
From that post we have the following;
Finally, we have ARCSIGHT INC
Sure enough, it IS a US corporation. And sure enough there ARE records with the same start date. HOWEVER, if you look at the applications they filed for the TEMPE office, they have one application for 1 SOFTWARE ENGINEER each on the same date and TWO applications for 5 SOFTWARE ENGINEERS with the same date as the other applications. It becomes readily apparent that if they filed even ONE application with only ONE worker and ONE application with FIVE workers all with the same start date, that it is IS common practice to file separate applications with the same start date for the same location, salary, and job title.
You've just proven that your "bad data" theory is a "bad" assumption.
One WOULD wonder why ARCSIGHT is hiring all of those H1-B workers in Sunnyvale and Tempe when there are so many engineers with those skills who can't find work. Are they saying that they couldn't find any software engineers with the necessary skills in Silicon Valley or Tempe, AZ? Right.
And as far as DCM goes, they DID lie and call their positions "programmer analyst" where the work they describe on their site relates to software engineering. They DID file applications for 30 "programmer analyst" not only for their Austin development center but for each and every one of their sales offices thought the US. And they DID file 104 LCA applications resulting in over 3000 H1-B visas where they claim a workforce of 300.
So, here we have demonstrated that it is NOT a database error, it is what was INPUT into the database.
It's wierd, not invalidating, just wierd and something worth keeping in mind when looking at the data.
It's weird alright. I'd say it's something that SHOULD be looked into. We know that it isn't a known error, as the FAQ lists ALL known errors in the database. Duplicate records is NOT one of those errors, as we know from post 261 in the old thread...
The meaning of national origin would normally mean whether you were a naturalized citizen or born in the USA. It would also apply to the distinctions between Irish, Italian, French, etc.. Here, in this case, we are being discriminated against because we are American. I'd say the rule applies...
Exactly.
Id like to see some kind of data or statistic or fact that proves this, otherwise, its BS. I work with ALOT of H1-B's and the way they spend money they aint makin' less than me
Perhaps it's time for Americans to start filing complaints with the Department of Labor, and various other agencies involved with upholding the laws of this country and of our states. Maybe it's time to lobby Congress ourselves concerning this issue. Perhaps it's time to PROTEST in the streets. We need to address this situation, and we need to make our Representatives aware that this neither this issue or us are going to go away.
Also, Matloff claims that in silicon valley it is common for an asian owned company to hire 100% from the home country.
On my last interview, 3 out of the 5 people that interviewed me were foreign. 2 of them were Chinese, both of which had extremely thick accents, and one of those had an accent so thick that I could barely understand a word that he said. Needless to say, I didn't get the job...
I know you were just being sarcastic, but I felt I could respond and make a point here very clear- I don't want to compete against communist countries and slave labor in Chinese goolags. But that is just me...
No need for discussion. Just hire cheap foreign labor. How more simple does it have to be?
Businesses that rely on these are making a huge mistake and will pay for it eventually by going down the tubes.
I have worked in an environment where the H1Bs came in several years later in mass, mostly Indians. When that happened, I discovered that 80% of them were almost impossible to communicate with, about half were extremely rude (they would not even try to speak English when an American walked into the room), and well over half were below par in capabilities.
In fact, I even wanted to go up to some of them, shake them by the neck and say, "Did your mother raise you to be rude to others?" Then I found out that yes they did in fact raise their children to be rude to others. Theirs is a class society full of strife and envy.
But this is my position on the entire matter. It was a business decision that the business management felt was necessary to stay afloat, and it worked. I can't fault them for it. This is America. I don't depend on them for my lively hood. America is the land of opportunity, and still more so than anywhere else in the world.
Hear, hear. Finally a word of wisdom from this tiresome thread. One of the characteristic traits of conservatives is viewing the world as a realist, not a fantast. So why all the griping about WHAT IS, as opposed to what should be?
Here's a summary for the realists:
Well, well, well. In looking up DCM Technologies, it appears that DCM's LCA records are NOT duplicates after all, and they HAVE filed for a WHOLE bunch of people. In FACT, the current DOL LCA database indicates 214 records, not just 104 as in the LCA database provided at zazona.com.
Funny that DCM's company info indicates that they have only 300 or so engineers working for them between India and the US.
Take a peek at post 203 from the "other thread"
From the above link;
DCM Technologies provides its customization and design services through its current strength of 300 plus engineers located at its headquarter in National Capital Region New Delhi, India and design center in Austin Texas, and sales and support offices in Newark, California, Boston, Massachusetts and Tokyo Japan. More information on DCM Technologies can be obtained at http://www.dcmtech.com/.
Funny too that although Austin is their US development center, they spread thousands of "programmer/analysts" around their US sales offices....
The simple fact is, the claim that there aren't "enough computer literate" people in the US to fill these positions is an outrageous lie put forth by the ITAA in colusion with corporate interests.
Many engineers with their Masters degree in Computer Science are working at Home Depot because they can't get a job in the software industry after being laid off in order to make room for a H1-B...
Take a look at post 1 and post 49.
(Red Jones)You're right, it is sickening.
There is a Republican, believe it or not, who opposes H-1B, and has a bill "pending" to cut the visas back to 65,000. The bill has been stuck in the House Judiciary committee for about a year now.
His name is familiar to us who post to the immigration threads. Tancredo.
It may be time to start pushing him to run for the 2004 nomination. It may put an honest scare into Bush.
His name is familiar to us who post to the immigration threads. Tancredo.
It may be time to start pushing him to run for the 2004 nomination. It may put an honest scare into Bush.
I'd say that's an EXCELLENT idea! I'd volunteer as a campaign worker, and would definitely support him...
Perhaps we should all write our Congresmen and ask them why Representative Tancredo's bill is stuck in committee as well.
I think if you spent 20 years building a career and lost it because your government decided it was time to give your job to a foreigner you might be able to understand that just accepting this "as the way it is" is simply not an acceptable solution. It may be easy for you to say this because your career and your ability of making a living is not being sabotaged. To turn around at the age of 40 and start all over again in a new profession is easier said than done.
Here's a summary for the realists: If there wasn't an H1B program, programming would be sent offshore.
My take on this is "so be it" let these anti American companies leave this country and good riddens to them.
Don't get into a trade which can be substituted by low cost immigrant labor; besides programming, this means manual trades like construction, etc.
Too late, you should have told all the engineering students in college that they were wasting their time. I also guess you don't give a crap about our ability to be a technologically advanced nation.
Besides, what profession is immune from a little government intervention? Most professions can easily be destroyed in the same way the engineering profession is being destroyed. Doctors, accountants, nurses, etc. can all be imported. The only profession that may be preserved is the legal profession.
I agree with your assessment. I am a COBOL programmer for a major retailer and have had a lot of bad experiences with H1B workers from India and Pakistan.
Often I have to spend hours of my time training these people on the basics of COBOL/CICS/DB2 programming. Every other thing they say I have to have them repeat because I cannot understand what the hell they are saying through their heavy accent.
Just yesterday I was called into a 1 hour meeting so I could tell this one H1B guy how to read one of our VSAM files in a CICS program. At first he tried to tell me this wasn't possible. I wanted to reach across the table and slap some sense into him. The sad thing is, this program he is working on is probably going to take him 3 weeks not to mention all the time he is going to waste of other people that will have to walk him through it. I could have this thing wrapped up in 2 days, 3 days at the most. They better be paying this guy less than 12k a year, otherwise it would of been a lot cheaper just to give the project to me.
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