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Flight 587 probe focusing on what made tail fall off
AP | 10/29/02 | LESLIE MILLER

Posted on 10/29/2002 1:57:47 AM PST by kattracks

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The investigation into the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 in New York last year involves many complex technical questions that can be boiled down to a simple query: What caused the tail to snap off?

The Nov. 12 crash, the second deadliest on U.S. soil, killed all 260 people on the European Airbus A300-600 and five people on the ground.

The National Transportation Safety Board's four-day public hearing on the accident begins Tuesday. NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz said the agency probably won't decide the probable cause of the crash until next year.

It was the first crash of an Airbus aircraft in North America. Investigators have ruled out terrorism as a cause, as well as engine failure, fire and contact with birds.

The plane crashed 103 seconds after taking off for the Dominican Republic from John F. Kennedy International Airport. The jet twice ran into the wake of a Boeing 747 five miles ahead of it, according to the NTSB.

The rudder began to swing back and forth violently. Seven seconds later, the tail fin, which was made of a nonmetallic composite, started to break off. The plane plunged into a residential neighborhood.

It was the first time the NTSB was aware of the in-flight failure of an aircraft's major structural component made of composite materials.

Investigators have learned since the accident that sharp rudder actions can put sufficient stress on the tail fin to cause it to snap off.

In addition, the NTSB found that very slight pressure on the rudder pedal can cause severe rudder movements when flying at high speeds, which pilots may not have been aware of. Rudders help to keep a plane on course during landing or taking off in crosswinds and in case of engine failure; they're rarely used at higher speeds in flight.

The safety board urged the Federal Aviation Administration in February to make sure pilots are trained that moving the rudder back and forth may be dangerous even at low speeds previously thought to have been safe.

The FAA agreed to the recommendation.

Carol Carmody, the safety board's acting chairwoman, said investigators are focusing on what caused the rudder's movements and why the tail sheared off.

The board will try to determine:

--Should the aircraft's rudder be redesigned?

--Were the rudder movements caused by overreaction from the pilot to the turbulence?

--What are the psychological and physical effects of wake turbulence on pilots and on planes?

--What role did the tail's nonmetallic composition play in the accident?

Most of those on the flight were Dominican.

The safety board sent a letter dated Oct. 11 to the victims' families, inviting them to attend Tuesday's proceeding.


On the Net: NTSB Web site:

Airbus manufacturer, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co.:

Copyright 2002 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aaflight587
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1 posted on 10/29/2002 1:57:47 AM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
They could investigate the show, Dumn and DumNer.

"My parakeet Peety died. His head fell off. He was very old."

..."Our pets' heads are falling off!"...

If they really want to convince us it's not terror related, they should try to sell it to the blind kid.

2 posted on 10/29/2002 2:09:19 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: kattracks
the agency probably won't decide the probable cause of the crash until next year.

So then this is a nonreport report?

3 posted on 10/29/2002 2:10:54 AM PST by patriciaruth
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To: kattracks
I wonder if the govt. has arrested anyone for trying to get a piece of the tail to do an independant test for explosives like they did to the one that went down over L.I?Also, why does the govt. refuse to turn over the surveilance videos of the Oklahoma city area just prior to the bombing there. What don't they in govt. want us to know?
4 posted on 10/29/2002 2:41:05 AM PST by Joe Boucher
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To: kattracks
So this plane is save to fly as long as the pilot doesn't move the rudder back and forth.

Can't wait for the final report.

IMO every one should have a redesigned tail installed.
Not to mention the computer control system that produces a large rudder swing to a small input.

Thanks for the post.

5 posted on 10/29/2002 3:06:16 AM PST by Recluse
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To: kattracks
...involves many complex technical questions that can be boiled down to a simple query: What caused the tail to snap off?

The NTSB should review the passenger manifest. They'd probably find that someone named Mohammed was sitting near the back of the plane.

6 posted on 10/29/2002 3:51:21 AM PST by rickmichaels
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To: rickmichaels
On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken, yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John:Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken:We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John:U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to was ya know stunned me

Woman Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John:Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?)Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John Do you live around there Ken?

Ken Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

7 posted on 10/29/2002 3:56:07 AM PST by copycat
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To: Brian Allen
8 posted on 10/29/2002 3:57:05 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: kattracks
OK. The tail fell off because it was plastic.

Now could they please tell me why both engines fell off?
9 posted on 10/29/2002 3:57:22 AM PST by LadyDoc
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To: kattracks
The tail came off because the plane was never designed to fly sideways. The plane "lurched to the left", when the right wing lost it's structural integrity (like dipping one oar in the water). The side wind forces sheared the tail off cleanly.

The right wing failed because a shoe bomber detonated just above the right wing.

10 posted on 10/29/2002 3:58:08 AM PST by copycat
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To: copycat
"Lurched to the left"

Any possibility that a foreign liquid was introduced to the hydraulic system via ground crew? Loss of pressure to one or more control surfaces might cause the rudder to bank sharply to one side, which would cause it to shear off.

Just wondering who was working that day....
11 posted on 10/29/2002 4:04:27 AM PST by ovrtaxt
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To: kattracks
Flight 587 probe focusing on what made tail fall off .

I'm going out on a limb and saying the reason the tail fell off was caused by the 1st shoe bomber igniting his bomb before passengers could stop him.

12 posted on 10/29/2002 4:11:05 AM PST by OXENinFLA
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To: ovrtaxt
Not when you consider this evidence...Flt. 587 Eyewitnesses insist Expolsion Came Before Tail Broke Off

Two eyewitness to the Nov. 12 crash of American Airlines Flight 587 said over the weekend that investigators for the National Transportation Safety Board are wrong to focus on potential structural defects as the cause of the disaster - insisting instead that the plane's tail came off over New York's Jamaica Bay only after it exploded in a fireball.

"It was after the explosion," eyewitness Tom Lynch, a retired firefighter, told the New York Post. "I'm telling you, the tail was there until the second explosion."

"No tail fell off, not before the explosion. I swear to that," Lynch told the paper's Steve Dunleavy.

The eyewitness said there was absolutely no doubt about what he saw.

"I had my head up taking in that beautiful, clear day and was staring straight at the plane. It made a bank turn and suddenly there was an explosion, orange and black, on the right-hand side of the fuselage. It was a small explosion, about half the size of a car."

13 posted on 10/29/2002 4:16:15 AM PST by copycat
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To: rickmichaels
Someone on FR posted the pax manifest. It was verrry interesting!
14 posted on 10/29/2002 4:34:56 AM PST by CIApilot
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To: copycat
I hadn't heard this account.

I would prefer that the truth was terrorism. The other option I think is that all these planes (Airbus) are unsafe.

15 posted on 10/29/2002 4:55:49 AM PST by Recluse
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To: Recluse
You're not alone. Very few people have heard this info.

Bush would have a much easier time selling his War on Terror if he would allow the truth about this, OKC, and random shootings to be labeled what they truly are...Islamic terrorism.

For posterity...

Jet "exploded into pieces"
Feds Downplay Flt. 587 Explosion Reports

Breakup of Airliner is captured on security film.
Flight 587 Video Shows "Puff of Smoke" in Sky
FBI Sitting on Flt. 587 Videotape

Accident Theories Falling Like Dominoes (a collection of trial balloons)
Air Turbulence May Be Factor in Jetline Crash, Officials Say
Sabotage Explains Fight 587 Crash, Expert Says

JetBlue Pilot Saw American Airlines Crash
Flt. 587 Eyewitnesses insist Expolsion Came Before Tail Broke Off

Flight 587 Witnesses Blast Feds
Flight 587:Video May Hold the Key

16 posted on 10/29/2002 5:13:49 AM PST by copycat
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To: *AA Flight 587
17 posted on 10/29/2002 7:32:17 AM PST by Free the USA
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To: Free the USA
18 posted on 10/29/2002 3:04:26 PM PST by copycat
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To: B4Ranch
Hi Bud -- thanks for the bump.

Do not ride American. Never!

Do not ride United. Never!

Do not ride on [Committee "designed" and "built;" EURO-peon-tax-slave subsidised and French slut "salesman" supplied] Airbus "airplanes."

And let the investigation proceed.

Now that the KKKli'toon/Goreleone RICO-racketeering criminal-frontsperson "administration" has, for the most part, gone, the pros [Notwithstanding they are the trailing edge -- the leading edge professionals are all at Boeing or out here in the field doing real work!] are pretty much back in charge.

Warm FReegards -- Brian
19 posted on 10/29/2002 11:34:49 PM PST by Brian Allen
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To: copycat
A shoebomber??
20 posted on 10/29/2002 11:42:41 PM PST by timestax
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