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'Marksman' Or 'Expert' Rating No Big Deal In Army, Soldiers Point Out
Tacoma News Tribune
| October 25, 2002
| Michael Gilbert and Eijiro Kawada
Posted on 10/28/2002 12:38:49 PM PST by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Does anyone know what Moose was referring to by saying "The Duck is in the Noose"?
2
posted on
10/28/2002 12:41:31 PM PST
by
Bugbear
Comment #3 Removed by Moderator
To: Stand Watch Listen
Considering that during a 26 year career I fired for record on 25 meter range at scaled targets in good to excellent conditions from a foxhole supported position its a crock.
The pressure on units to "keep the numbers up" is tremendous. That leads to the use of a .223/5.56 MM pencil all too often.
4
posted on
10/28/2002 12:51:15 PM PST
by
FRMAG
To: Stand Watch Listen
Others said about one in five qualify as expert. That's about right. The news that qualifying "expert" is somehow a gimme would come as a surprise to a great many soldiers seeking additional promotion points, or the Expert Infantry Badge. 36 of 40 is tough, and usually requires many trips to the range and several hundred rounds.
The DC shooter wasn't a "sniper" - but he was a competent marskman. Every "expert" that climbs on the "my grandma can shoot better" bandwagon is doing a disservice to the training profession.
If it's that easy, we certainly don't need "experts" to train our soldiers or police, they can get all the training they need from reading Soldier Of Fortune.
This article is cr*p.
5
posted on
10/28/2002 12:55:46 PM PST
by
xsrdx
To: Stand Watch Listen
That article is partly crap and partly true.
I spent 9 years in the army. I always fired expert. In fact in Basic Training I fired a perfect 40. And I'm mighty proud of it, too. In order to do that I had to hit about 4 (if I remember right) targets that were 300 meters distant.
The part that is true about the article is that the expert badge is meaningless. I know for a fact that there was quite a bit of cheating at the range. Since range scores translate directly to promotion points, a good score is important. And since scoring is done by your buddy, a good score is easily achievable.
But to make a blanket statement that the expert badge is meaningless, bothers me to a certain extent. Many of the expert badges out there are meaningless because they're not genuine. My badge is genuine and therefor I take exception to the comment.
How many are phony? I don't know, but I bet it's a high percentage.
I have a nephew in the army now, he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.
To: FRMAG
25m alternate qualification requires 38 hits in 40 attempts. Alternate qualification is (supposed to be) utilized only when appropriate 300yd range facilities aren't available. Ft. Lewis soldiers train to the 300m standard.
7
posted on
10/28/2002 1:06:44 PM PST
by
xsrdx
To: sparkomatic
I have a nephew in the army now, he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.I was wondering what you mean by your buddy scores for you. The only time I saw manual scoring was when zeroing ranges were used to qualify.
8
posted on
10/28/2002 1:09:18 PM PST
by
briant
To: sparkomatic; *bang_list
he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring. Active installation qualification ranges should all be automated ERETS (Enhanced Remote Electronic Target System) ranges that count hits/misses automatically, via computerized sensors.
Your score cannot be "doctored" without WILDLY obvious tampering.
9
posted on
10/28/2002 1:10:18 PM PST
by
xsrdx
To: Stand Watch Listen
Oh and hitting a nickel or dime at 100 yards is crap, too. The M-16 is not a less than 1 moa rifle. In fact, almost no rifle is a less than 1 moa rifle. I think the M-16 is probably closer to a 2 moa rifle. If a guy shoots a 3 round group there's a pretty good chance the guy can hit the nickel or dime. But he's not going to hit it every time. The rifle just simply isn't that good.
To: briant
I spent almost all of my time at Fort Bragg, NC through the 80's. The qualification ranges were set up so that two shooters go to a lane. I think the ranges had about 40 lanes or something like that. Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil. Hence the .223/5.56mm pencil comment the other poster made on this thread. When that shooter has fired all 40 rounds then you switch and the other guy shoots while you score.
To: sparkomatic
I understand what your saying, but, as a fellow soldier (ARNG), I have also shot the gamut from Marksman to Expert.
While, I'll agree that shooting expert (which I've not done all that often) is, by no means, "Not a big deal", it does not indicate mastery of the weapon, techniques, concealment, and mindset to the degree that would equate an "Expert" shooter to a sniper.
To: Bugbear
To: Bugbear
The duck in the noose was the sniper's phrase. It refers a folk tale in which the duck flys off with its captor and drops it from the air. I'm still waiting...
14
posted on
10/28/2002 1:31:09 PM PST
by
js1138
To: Stand Watch Listen
The media, being gun stupid, spreads the stupidity around.
Here's for mandatory firearms training in ALL schools.
It's more important than knowing how to roll a condom on a bannana.
To: Stand Watch Listen
a friend of mine who's marine infantry was laughing about the army's "expert" rating for shooting at 300 meters---the marines have to hit the mark from 500 meters. time for the army to raise it's standards imho...
To: xsrdx
>>36 of 40 is tough, and usually requires many trips to the range and several hundred rounds.
You obviously don't go to the range with the kind of people I do. That bunch will go through a few thousand on a good *day* at the range (single trip).
A thousand rounds of milsurp .223 is only a couple hundred bucks. That's very little for the gov't to spend, and a few range trips are an awfully small price to pay in time, for someone who makes their living as a soldier.
For professional soldiers in combat arms MOS's, the level of shooting ability to obtain an expert badge should be damn near a requirement. Or at least for anyone close to infantry.
To: sparkomatic
I was trained as a unit armorer while with 1Bn 52nd Inf. Learned there that it is acceptable for a M16 to be as much as a 5 MOA after 2000 rds. Considering the weapon actually rattles when shacken, I would say that your assessment of 2 MOA is kind.
My turn to brag:
My Remmington 700 VS (Varmit Synthetic - closest thing to the M24 on the civilan market) came with 1/2 MOA out of the box and I have since tuned it to 1/10 MOA from bench. I have to shoot at 200 yards to be able to make an accurate measure of the MOA.
The down side is that it leaves me no excuse when I miss 'cause the rifle is far more accurate than I'll ever be.
For those that think my claims to be unrealistic, or those that wish to "tune" their rifle, I highly recommend the following product:
http://rifle-accuracy.com/
While I was not able to acheive the .08 MOA in the product advertisements, It did greatly improved the accuracy of my gun. I had it installed in the above mentioned Rem 700 in .308 and it is now a true tack driver.
To: sparkomatic
,i>...Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil...
I only saw the pop-up ranges that were scored electroically (except when 25m zeroing ranges were used. Anyway, people could still cheat by saving some of their practice rounds and adding them to your 30 round magazine that should have had 20 rounds in it. (They usually gave you a pratice session in prone and foxhole positions.)
19
posted on
10/28/2002 1:40:55 PM PST
by
briant
To: sparkomatic
...Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil...I only saw the pop-up ranges that were scored electroically (except when 25m zeroing ranges were used. Anyway, people could still cheat by saving some of their practice rounds and adding them to your 30 round magazine that should have had 20 rounds in it. (They usually gave you a pratice session in prone and foxhole positions.)
20
posted on
10/28/2002 1:41:59 PM PST
by
briant
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