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VT Christian Homeschooling Mom Taken Away In Shackles!
The Curmudgeon: A Vermont Newsletter | 10/17/02 | Cindy Wade

Posted on 10/21/2002 9:45:25 AM PDT by Truant Mom

Christian Homeschooling Mom Taken Away In Shackles!

by Cindy Wade

Source: The Curmudgeon: A Vermont Newsletter (reprint permission is hereby granted by the publisher to any and all other news agencies and their readers or viewers)

October 17, 2002

On Wednesday, October 16, Patricia L. O'Dell, 34, of S. Newfane, was arrested at 3:05 pm at the Bennington District Court in Bennington, Vermont for contempt of court. Mrs. O'Dell had been cited into court yesterday morning for refusing to submit to fingerprinting and a photograph for police files.

Mrs. O'Dell was ordered to submit to this procedure on October 7 at another arraignment hearing for 'custodial interference' and 'impeding an officer' as part of her release conditions. That condition involved Mrs. O'Dell going to the Bennington police station within 5 days of her release. On the following Friday, October 11, four days later, Mrs. O'Dell contacted U.S. Attorney Brian Marthage in Bennington through an advocate to inform him she wished to turn herself in because she was still refusing to have the prints and photos taken. Marthage informed the advocate that the courts are closed over the weekend and according to his calculations the fifth day would be Monday, October 14. Mrs. O'Dell waited the weekend and all day Monday until 5 pm. On the morning of October 15 she arrived at the police station to turn herself in and still refused to submit to the fingerprinting and photograph. She was promptly given a citation to appear in District Court the following morning at 11:30 am.

Mrs. O'Dell arrived at District Court at 11:30 am and was told her case had been moved to 12:30 pm. Mrs. O'Dell was finally called into the court room at approximately 2:30 pm where she represented herself and entered a plea of 'not guilty' to the charge. When questioned by Judge Howard about her refusal to submit to being photographed and fingerprinted Mrs. O'Dell informed him she believes a person is innocent until proven guilty and the procedure violates her rights. After hearing testimony from the prosecutor who expressed his concern for Mrs. O'Dell's ongoing contempt and that she basically "holds the keys to her own jail cell", Judge David Howard ordered a 'show cause' hearing be scheduled for the following week. Mrs. O'Dell was then released and presented with the conditions which she was expected to sign. Upon reading the conditions Mrs. O'Dell found difficulty in agreeing with the requirement that she abide by Family Court orders. One such order is that she turn over her 15 year old homeschooling son to state custody. Mrs. O'Dell refuses to do that because she feels strongly that it would compromise her religious beliefs and her son's Christian education. She also fears he would be subjected to abuse in the hands of SRS (Social Rehabilitative Services).

Upon Mrs. O'Dell's final refusal and a warning from the deputy sheriff that she would be taken into custody if she did not sign, she was quickly escorted from the court lobby to a small holding room where she was searched and relieved of her wrist watch and wedding band. She was place in hand cuffs attached to a leather belt around her waist and her ankles were secured with cuffs and a length of metal chain. These were placed on her to prepare her for transport by the Bennington County Sheriff's department to the Chittenden Regional Corrections Facility at 7 Farrell Street in South Burlington, Vermont.

It was brought to the attention of the attending sheriffs that they needed to take special care with Mrs. O'Dell's right wrist and hand which were wrapped in a support bandage. Mrs. O'Dell says this injury was a result of state trooper Jesse Robson's actions on Friday, September 13 when he tackled Mrs. O'Dell to the ground at the home of Mrs. Pat Stewart on Rocky Lane. Mrs. Stewart is Mrs. O'Dell's mother. Robson allegedly then placed his knee in Mrs. O'Dell's back and cuffed her hands behind her back. Officer Robson then tightened his grip on her arm while twisting it in an attempt to prevent her from shouting to her family members to not let the other officers into her mother's home without a search warrant, according to Mrs. O'Dell. Robson was there that day with several other officers to take Mrs. O'Dell's four children into state custody for what he describes in his affidavit as "The basis for the children being taken into custody was educational neglect."

Mrs. O'Dell also accused Officer Robson of pulling her by the hair and squeezing her face with his hand at the time of this incident. When Mrs. O'Dell was taken into custody she claims she was never read her Miranda rights although Robson questioned her extensively and alone in the cruiser and at the Shaftsbury barracks. She says she also suspects the reason why she was not photographed when she was first arrested was because Robson left marks on her face and those marks would have shown up in the photograph. Robson was unable to take Mrs. O'Dell's fingerprints because she was suffering pain from Robson's alleged abuse that caused injury to her right hand and wrist.

Mrs. O'Dell sought medical treatment at the Southwestern Vermont Medical Center at around 12:20 am once SRS took possession of her three daughter and she was released from custody. Her arm was wrapped and placed in a sling by attending physician Dr. G. Pellerin. According to the medical report Mrs. O'Dell had a hand injury, sprained wrist and contusions. On Saturday, October 14 a highly visible thumb size contusion could be seen on Mrs. O'Dell's upper inside left arm where she alleges Robson grabbed her. The marks on her face were no longer noticeable.

Besides the alleged abuse by Officer Robson there is a huge discrepancy in the times of the arrival of the police officers and the time the search warrant was signed. According to Officer Robson and Sergeant Lloyd N. Dean, another state police officer at the scene, they arrived at approximately 4:15 or 4:39 pm. The search warrant was not signed by Judge Howard until 6:35 pm. This would show the officers entered onto the Stewart property without the proper warrant. According to Mrs. O'Dell's family members the officers were told more than once they needed a search warrant to enter the property. It was decided by Dean that he would leave to obtain the search warrant. Family members also say the back door to the kitchen was kicked in by two officers just prior to anyone actually being handed the search warrant. The search warrant specifically says "This warrant may (not) be executed without knocking and announcing the presence of law enforcement officers and their purpose." Neither the word 'may' or 'not' were either circled, underlined or crossed out. The requirement for the serving officer to knock and announce is a federal law.

Prior to Dean obtaining the search warrant O'Dell's youngest daughter, Elizabeth, age 8, was chased screaming through the wooded lot near the Stewart home for some distance before she "just disappeared", as her mother stated. This was of great concern to both Mr. and Mrs. O'Dell because just that morning Mr. O'Dell had been squirrel hunting in that same wooded area and he warned his wife to not let the children play in them for fear of them getting shot by hunters he saw there. Mrs. O'Dell says she was terrified for her daughter's safety because the five police officers who were chasing her were showing little, if any, regard for the hunting taking place in those woods.

O'Dell Family Find Themselves Homeless

The O'Dell family has been living in their car, in motels and have camped out in warmer weather since they lost their West Haven, Vermont home to a fire in December 2000 just three days after Christmas. The family is not entirely homeless though. With the insurance money from their destroyed home they purchased a one acre lot located on Hunter Brook Road in South Newfane in the fall of 2001. They also purchased a second hand mobile home from a woman in Shaftsbury to place onto their new lot. This mobile home was well kept and within the O'Dell's budget. The previous owner was happy to have the mobile home taken off her hands because she needed it removed in order to replace it with her new one.

Patricia found a company in New Hampshire willing to transport the mobile home to S. Newfane for a fee of $950.00 but the company had difficulty getting the home onto the lot. The mobile home continues to sit at the end of the O'Dell's driveway where it was left in the late fall of 2001. Plans are underway to connect the mobile home with the property by a group of concerned citizens who have taken the initiative to get the project done at no cost to the O'Dell family. The goal is to get the mobile home installed by Thanksgiving so the O'Dell's will once again be able to live in comfort and together as a family.

The O'Dell family purchased their S. Newfane lot as is meaning they had to remove the dilapidated mobile home and addition that was already on the property. These structures had been empty for several years and had been vandalized. There was also an abandoned car on the lot that needed to be hauled away. The O'Dell family went to work and dismantled both structures leaving huge piles of materials they intended to recycle into small structures for their pets and livestock. Mrs. O'Dell's goat would provide her with fresh milk since she was unable to tolerate cow's milk and the family would have fresh eggs and meat from their flock of chickens.

Unfortunately, a few members of the S. Newfane community decided to intervene in the O'Dell's plans and progress. According to a Newfane selectboard meeting on January 1, 2002, line 7B, item #4 a "motion was made by R. Marek and seconded by F. Bacon to have the Town Constable and the Windham County Sheriff's Department work together to file the necessary paper work to bring charges of cruelty and abuse against Patricia O'Dell and to have the animals removed from Ms. O'Dell's control. Unanimous. The Windham County Humane Society has home for all of the animals; dogs, cats, chickens and a goat."

While the O'Dell's were working to prepare there property and establish their new home they were living temporarily in a homeless shelter in Bennington. They traveled the distance of 38 miles each day to there secluded wooded lot located on a dirt road to feed and care for their animals they had built temporary shelter for. Since they were not allowed to have pets or livestock at the shelter they felt it best the animals remain on their new land. Apparently town officials were entering the O'Dell property without authority or permission to do so according to Mrs. O'Dell. At some point those authorities, without a search warrant and without warning simply removed the O'Dell's animals from their property when the O'Dell's were away.

According to another Newfane selectboard meeting on February, 7, 2002, line 7B, item #2 "R. Marek questioned what may happen if the amount due to the Windham County Humane Society if the alleged owner of the animals, Patricia O'Dell, does not pay for the housing and other services provided by the WCHS. Suggestions were made but no conclusions were reached at this time." According to Mrs. O'Dell her animals were never abused or neglected and the town had no right to enter her property illegally and seize her animals. She has since acquired the paperwork from federal court and plans to file a 'Notice of Claim' against the Newfane Town Selectboard, the Town Constable, the Windham County Sheriff's Department and the Windham County Humane Society for $10,000,000.00 and she fully intends to send the town a bill for the value of her animals.

A work crew will arrive at the O'Dell property in S. Newfane on Saturday, October 19 at 8:00 am to remove the unwanted materials and metal framing from the old mobile home. The old car will also be towed away along with remnants of the dismantled addition. Once this is done the new mobile home can be pulled up to the lot and set into place. The plumbing, water and electric will eventually be reestablished. This work is being done by volunteers from Vermont, New York, New Hampshire and Massachusetts who will donate their time, money and materials for the project at no cost to the O'Dell family. These volunteers include former homeless people, home educators, politicians, ministers, off-duty police officers, mothers, fathers, teenagers, youngsters, contractors, veterans and others. According to one of the organizers the work crew is not a formal organization but are a group of caring, concerned citizens who have seen the need to assist a family that is struggling to stay together and improve themselves. They welcome anyone who wishes to join them in this effort by simply showing up at the property this coming Saturday. They also want the media to know they are welcome as well.

DOE Prevents Christian Home Education

According to first hand accounts SRS is using the O'Dell's homeless situation as an excuse to keep the children in their custody. SRS is also acting on an order from the Vermont Department of Education for a charge of 'educational neglect' stemming from a Home Study Hearing held November 20, 2001 for Patricia O'Dell. According to written documentation surrounding this hearing Mrs. O'Dell established her right as a Christian home educator to homeschool her children without state or local interference and that she was providing her children with more than a minimum course of study as required by state regulations. According to documentation several state witnesses accused Mrs. O'Dell of having 'standards' and expectations that were too high for her children.

When Mrs. O'Dell first began to homeschool her children she received what some might call 'approval' from the Vermont Department of Education's Home Study Consultant Natalie Casco. According to law, however, 'approval' is not needed to homeschool in Vermont, nor are there any qualifications necessary to homeschool your children. Mrs. O'Dell is a homemaker and has a high school diploma from Mt. Anthony Union High School in Bennington. Mr. O'Dell dropped out of school in the eleventh grade and is on disability for a physical problem. A parent wishing to homeschool their child need only send in an 'enrollment notification' along with a course of study covering the six basic topics and proof of screening showing the child has no impairments. A child is automatically enrolled at that time but the state can call a hearing to determine whether or not the application is complete. The key word here is 'notification'.

The state statute also reads "a person having the control of a child between the ages of six and sixteen shall cause the child to attend an approved public school, an approved recognized independent school or a home study program for the full number of days for which that school is held...." The key word here appears to be 'a' home study program, not the VT DOE's home study program. Mrs. O'Dell states that her children attend their homeschool 365 days a year. They have never been tardy or absent, since they can homeschool anywhere, anytime, even when they are with relatives or friends. In public school her children were accused by staff members as having behavior problems. In their homeschool Mrs. O'Dell says the behavior of her children is not a problem for her.

Mrs. O'Dell's children appear to be happy, healthy, normal, rambunctious children who enjoy their freedom to choose what they like to learn and learn best in the loving, secure, Christian environment that Mrs. O'Dell provides for them. They use few workbooks and almost no text books. The use reading books including classic stories and do many hands-on learning which Mrs. O'Dell says works best for all her children. Mrs. O'Dell finds little need for testing because she can see their day to day progress since she lives with them. When the need arises to concentrate more on a subject or area of interest Mrs. O'Dell takes the time to do that and will give that particular child more attention than the others. The children learn from each other as well, helping each other with reading, math or chores.

When Mrs. O'Dell feels the need for support or assistance she calls on several others in her homeschooling community for help. Because of the lack of funding and their homelessness that community has come forward and established a fund for the O'Dell children at A Teacher's Closet in downtown Rutland, a teaching/learning material supply store. The O'Dell children were all provided with book bags filled with materials, supplies and books that can be used anywhere they may be including in the car, at a campsite or in a motel. Mrs. O'Dell says that due to the lack of education on the part of the public school system she has had to do much remedial work with her three older children. Her youngest had never been to public school until SRS intervened by taking the children. SRS with the VT DOE's blessings have place Mrs. O'Dell's three youngest children into public school against her wishes. Her oldest son, Andrew, is presently not in the physical custody of SRS.

Since the taking the children by SRS from Mrs. O'Dell's custody on September 13 she has discovered her three daughters have been subjected to blood tests, physical examinations, x-rays, psychological testing, and counseling, all against their will and hers. Both she and the girls have been denied their right to freely exercise their religion and SRS is withholding the affections of Mrs. O'Dell from her daughters as a tool to get the children to cooperate with them. Mrs. O'Dell was only allowed two one-hour supervised visits with her daughters each week until her arrest yesterday. Now her children will not be able to see her at all while she sits and waits in the S. Burlington prison.

Mrs. O'Dell says the first year Natalie Casco 'approved' her homeschooling they made her agree to keep two of her children in special education classes at the local school. However, Mrs. O'Dell found this burdensome and her children were being abused and bullied whenever they were on school property, sometimes even by the teachers in charge of their care and well-being. At other times the teachers themselves would actually do the work for the O'Dell children just to show they were making progress under their tutelage.

The second year Mrs. O'Dell homeschooled she chose to withdraw her children from special education classes, which is her prerogative according to the VT Supreme Court ruling in the Karen Maple case (May 2000). After much research and discussion with other homeschoolers Mrs. O'Dell also sights the 1920's Education Trilogy (Meyer v. Nebraska, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, Farrington v. Tokushige as well as Wisconsin v. Yoder in 1972) as supporting her constitutional right to homeschool and to provide a Christian education for her children. Things were fine in her W. Haven home and the local school didn't really bother her until her home burned to the ground just after Christmas. Within two months of the fire and with no place to live the Fair Haven Elementary School principal, Gloria Moulton, began pursuing the O'Dell family with the threat of SRS intervention. According to Mrs. O'Dell the harassment and persecution continues to this day. Mrs. O'Dell's present incarceration for pursuing a Christian home education for her four children appears to attest to that fact.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; US: Vermont
KEYWORDS: homeschooling; odell; vermont
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To: Truant Mom
Something is fishy here, but I believe that once the facts are known, there may have been a valid reason for the court's actions.
141 posted on 10/22/2002 5:48:24 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: Truant Mom
Wait. Karen Maple was barely literate and refused to be fingerprinted?
142 posted on 10/22/2002 5:58:13 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Free the USA; Carry_Okie; 4Freedom; Aliska; Alabama_Wild_Man; Aquinasfan; anniegetyourgun; ArGee; ..
Homeschooler slapped with Education Neglect charges ping
143 posted on 10/22/2002 6:08:41 PM PDT by madfly
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To: madfly
Thanks.
144 posted on 10/22/2002 6:26:46 PM PDT by sistergoldenhair
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To: justshutupandtakeit
You sound like a bitter, jealous person. Homeschoolers have been putting public school students to shame for the past 10 years and you just can't stand that fact.

The running joke in this country is how stupid, violent, peer pressured and socially misfit public school graduates are and you're the parent of one (or two).

You sure do have a hair across your arse when it comes to homeschooling. You are also playing God by passing judgement on Mrs. O'Dell and her four wonderful children. I know them personally and I would take all of them any day over your anal retentive self or your OBE public school graduate child.

I am not anti-State, anti-government or anti-Public Education. I 'am' the government so why would I be against myself. I am a public school graduate, did my student teaching in public school and substituted in the public schools so I know from the inside that it is a failing system. I am a college graduate and Mrs. O'Dell is smarter than many college graduates I've met with their educational theory baggage and their inflated self-worth.

Right now in Vermont we have a Democrat bloke running for Lt. Governor who admits in his radio ads that he cannot spell. Say what?

Mrs. O'Dell had the good sense to seek outside help and support with her home education endeavor. After seeing for years what the public school was doing to Mrs. O'Dell's children there is no way she could do a worse job of providing them with a 'real' education--not some hatchet job called public schooling.

I resent your assumptions that I am hysterical, Mrs. O'Dell is a nutcase and that her children will end up 'washing cars' in the future. You appear to me as simply a mean, heartless person who has no interest in humanity except that of your own selfish interests.

People like you who beat their chest and sing the praises of public schooling usually have some personal connection to it such as being a school teacher or administrator, married to one, related to one or have children who have graduated from them. You defend the public school and your choice to use them as a way to validate your choice, especially when reports, statistics and media stories show the public school failing on nearly all counts--not to mention the adult nutcases who run them or the student nutcases who shoot everyone to death.

Your argument here is invalid and you come across as simply a ranting, jealous, nasty, mean person who hates everyone who disagrees with you.

We are in a sad state in this country when people could care less when a family's home burns to the ground and a mother wants a better life than she had for her children. Not to mention people like you who don't want Mrs. O'Dell to have constitutional rights but you'd be the first to kick and scream if someone tried to deny you yours.

145 posted on 10/22/2002 6:27:29 PM PDT by Truant Mom
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To: timestax; AppyPappy
W.T.F. is going on in our Republic???!!

It is filled with AppyPappys and other joiners (collectivists at heart) who believe the government can do no wrong, and will continue to believe it until it comes for them.

Hank

146 posted on 10/22/2002 6:30:35 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Free the USA; Carry_Okie; 4Freedom; Aliska; Alabama_Wild_Man; Aquinasfan; anniegetyourgun; ArGee; ..
I found that the author has had a Vermont Homeschooling Yahoo Group following Mrs. O'Dell's story for more than a year. Here are two posts regarding this story.

Cindy Wade's Homeschooling Yahoo Group

See post #785

795

From: Marieken Volz  <liberty@t...>
Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:02am
Subject: O'Dell family

 
People should take care whose advice they follow when dealing with the court system. It is dangerous to disobey the court.   In the last few years, 2 people have landed in jail probably by trusting on a non-lawyer's advice.  In the Patricia O'Dell case, the state could probably have acted more wisely.  I do not believe that what they did was in the best interest of the children.  Children should only be removed from their home if they are badly abused or in mortal danger.  I do not know enough to be absolutely certain, but Patricia did not strike me as a dangerous person. Still, once  in the situation the O'Dells found themselves in, it was their (maybe misinformed) decision to continue to resist and further complicate and hinder the possibility of the most speedy return of their children.  Patricia's decisions (I suspect guided by a non-lawyer's advice) have added to her troubles regardless of whether the state was wrong or right in their actions. 
 
That said, I feel badly for Patricia and her family.  She needs help, but her case is not like  Karen Maple's and should not be touted as simply a homeschooling case!  I strongly doubt that the supreme court will come to the rescue here, at least not because the state did not follow the home study statute as in Karen's case.  No doubt a charge of educational neglect was one of the reasons the children were removed.  However, I think this case is more complicated than that.  I have no doubt that there were other concerns and educational neglect alone would not have warranted removal of the children and certainly would not have had Patricia jailed.  She was jailed because of her refusal to respect the court system.  Regardless of whether or not she was treated fairly in the removal of her children, this was not the time to refuse to follow court procedures, especially without the benefit of a good attorney by one's side.  Advising people who cannot forsee the consequences of their actions to resist court orders is in my view irresponsible.
 
Even though I have not been directly involved with Patricia's case recently, I have followed her case for quite some time.  I was contacted by Patricia some years ago when she first started out homeschooling and have spoken to her, met her, and followed her case.  I attended a brainstorming meeting with an attorney to help her the first time a hearing had been called.  This attorney made a deal with the DOE, but for some reason, Patricia either did not take the deal, or did not abide by it, so the next year the DOE called for another hearing.  Patricia lost the hearing, but refused to put her children in school.  Then more disaster struck when their house burned down and they became homeless. 
 
I am at a loss as to how I supposedly put the screws to Patricia as Cindy is alledging. This seems like just needless flaming. Last time I had any contact with Patricia was at the meeting with the attorney before the summer of 2001 at which Cindy was present as well.   I offered her help when she first contacted me. When their house burned down, I donated clothing, a good bicycle, and other items and I solicited donations from my friends.  We are trying to free up some of our very limited funds to donate money right now to help them get their home in order. This family does need help from individuals who care.  They do not need help because they were homeschoolers (although they can use help on that front as well, but that is not now priority # 1).  They need help because they are a family in crisis and spiraling ever deeper into a crisis they cannot manage or control.  Cindy Wade has put lots of energy into getting these people back in a home.  I commend her for that, but I think she is misguided if she is giving these unfortunate people legal advice.  I wonder how aware Patricia was of the risks (and some predictable outcomes) associated with her decisions.
 
As I will not to be sucked into any abusive debates, I will not respond further on this list on this issue.  People can feel free to contact me privately.
 
Marieken
 

147 posted on 10/22/2002 6:51:08 PM PDT by madfly
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To: ppaul
Something is fishy here, but I believe that once the facts are known, there may have been a valid reason for the court's actions.

See post #137

148 posted on 10/22/2002 6:53:29 PM PDT by madfly
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
"erkläre zu, das furer hatte Sie gesprochen unterrichtet, was Verstandnumbing rheteric ich Ihnen oder Sie für treason des Zustandes festgehalten werden"

HUH ?!?

Junge, Junge, Des Kaiser's Deutsch ist das nicht.

longjack

149 posted on 10/22/2002 6:54:41 PM PDT by longjack
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Cindy Wade's Homeschooling Yahoo Group See post #785 <<>> thanks
150 posted on 10/22/2002 6:56:12 PM PDT by madfly
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This whole thread is a fascinating; how so many people can get so emotional about other people's kids. In my opinion, some parents are far better qualified to teach their kids than their local school system. Other parents are sure to be a hopeless disaster. But most us do not have the time to home-school; therefore home-schoolers will always be a minority. Why should we care about them one way or the other?

For all its powers to intervene in emergencies, the state is not the responsible party when it comes to child rearing decisions, parents are. Home schooling is not an emergency.

In a (still) free society, I think parents should choose what is best for their kids. Then let natural selection take its course. It is cruel but effective.

As for the mother in the news story: it doesn't pay to be stupid in America.

-cw
151 posted on 10/22/2002 6:56:26 PM PDT by colderwater
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To: Truant Mom
According to documentation several state witnesses accused Mrs. O'Dell of having 'standards' and expectations that were too high for her children.

This it TOO GOOD!!! The state is upset and hell-bent to stop this because a Christian is being well educated. The greatest threat to socialism is education.

If she were only teaching about Heather Has Two Mommies everything would be hunky-dory...

152 posted on 10/22/2002 7:04:05 PM PDT by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: Hank Kerchief
"W.T.F. is going on in our Republic???!!"

Well, it really started when our grandparents fell for FDR's b.s. of Social Security ; that was the first system in this nation for abdicating your personal and filial responsibilities to the gov't. The combined lures of not having to worry (plan) for the future and the idea of getting back more than you paid in (nevermind the gov't was forcibly taking the money from the younger workers) proved effective.

It is my observation that all the schemes which remove the choice from the individual and "spread the risk" due so always at the cost of reduced wealth,choice and opportunity for everyone. Without being forced to face the consequences for his own actions, a person is more likely to make non-productive choices based on short-term feelings.

We have millions who put no thought to tretirement but social security, millions who don't work because welfare checks ,free housing and medical care are available to the lazy, millions who are poorly educated because the public schools MUST teach at the lowest common level AND cannot inspire through faith in Man as a special being created by Divine Providence.

I say A. Lincoln started the destruction of the Constitutional Republic in his maniacal determination to preserve form over substance and then FDR hoodwinked Americans into socialism (which was sweeping the globe in various forms, some more vicious than others).

Today's calls for spreading Democracy worldwide are dangerous precisely because no mention is made of the natural rights but rather of desirable results. Neither God nor nature confer a Right to be without fear or hunger or shelter, but rather a Right to defend oneself , to earn they bread with the sweat of thy brow, and to bow down to no man.

153 posted on 10/22/2002 7:16:00 PM PDT by hoosierham
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To: ReadMyMind
I don't know what state you live in where your public schools have allowed to deteriorate to the point where a kid cannot get an education and do so without being abused.

All 50. What passes for an education at those public schools is a disgrace. And you can lump the very "best" public schools right on in the bunch.

154 posted on 10/22/2002 7:24:33 PM PDT by Demidog
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Oh, I'll bet the kids are getting sum rael buklarning from this pair.

Who knows. But it would have to be a far sight better than your education. And I bet they end up with better manners too.

155 posted on 10/22/2002 7:28:18 PM PDT by Demidog
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To: Hank Kerchief
It is filled with AppyPappys and other joiners (collectivists at heart) who believe the government can do no wrong, and will continue to believe it until it comes for them. Hank

Is this True, AppyPappy,...... whatcha gonna do when they come for You, AppyPappy??!!

156 posted on 10/22/2002 8:00:12 PM PDT by timestax
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To: MrB
That's basic Poly Sci 101. "Government is the organized use of force." Of course my Poly Sci 101 professor also stated that the Los Angeles Times was a conservative newspaper.
157 posted on 10/22/2002 8:33:45 PM PDT by altair
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To: justshutupandtakeit
My only crusade here is against those who adopt liars and nutcases and try to attack reasonable government actions wrt them.

I've adopted no one. I'm simply disagreeing with yours and RGSpincich's premise that the state has ultimate responsibility over everyone's children. HSLDA won't even tough Mrs. O'Dell's case, apparently. I admit there are other issues here that have lead to her situation and things she could have done to better deal with her legal problems. However, that does not excuse the abuses by the state nor your endorsement of those abuses.

158 posted on 10/22/2002 8:38:25 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: rmvh
rmvh said:

"We educated our children via private and Catholic schools at great personal sacrifice including driving old jalopies, giving up vacations, and generally doing without......It has paid off handsomely."

And I suppose *you* walked 5 miles to school barefoot in the snow every day, uphill, - both ways!

And *you* call *me* "self adulating." Sheeesh!

A bit harsh don't you think? I was simply trying to point out the results than can be achieved when children are properly and lovingly educated at home, - but then you didn't educate your children at home did you. You PAID other people to do that! IMHO you are not then *qualified* to have an informed opinion on this subject never having actually done the job yourself.

Blunt enough for you? - Anij.

BTW, - the way my children "turned out" is no merit of mine. Their achievements are and always will be, their own.
159 posted on 10/22/2002 9:44:31 PM PDT by Anij
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To: Spiff
HSLDA won't even tough Mrs. O'Dell's case, apparently.

HSLDA has taken alot of criticism for not taking cases but usually it doesn't have much to do with the circumstances or the case but whether or not the person was a member.

The mistake made here was sending the children to school in the first place. Once your kids are in the system, taking them out of the system generates a red flag.

My daughter doesn't have a social security number though every "professional" I came in contact with tried to convince me to sell her down the river. With advice like that, its no wonder this country is so far down the socialist path.

160 posted on 10/22/2002 10:22:52 PM PDT by Demidog
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