Drivers of White Vans are being treated as criminals

Vanity | Self

[SamAdams76]

The photos above currently on the Drudge site concern me. I followed the link and the article clearly stated that nobody was arrested last night.

Why then, do we have drivers of white vans, innocent civilians, evidently being pulled out vans at gunpoint and treated like dangerous criminals? One photo shows a man on the ground, evidently in handcuffs, with police officers standing over him as though they have just captured Whitey Bulger. When I first saw the photo, I figured the man was obviously a wanted criminal that police just so happened to come across during their search. But since there were no arrests last night, this man was obviously released and was no criminal after all.

The other photo shows a man by another white van with his hands in the air and a police officer has a gun drawn on him. Again, this was evidently just another innocent civilian who had the misfortune to be driving a white van on I-95 last night.

Now I understand the need for these roadblocks and for the police to be very thorough in their search for the sniper(s). But I cannot see the point of innocent people dragged out of their vehicles at gunpoint with no pretext other than the fact that they happen to be driving a white van.

Now maybe somebody here has an explanation why these two individuals were treated like criminals. Maybe they tried to evade the police or maybe they were driving stolen vans. But again, there were no arrests made last night. So what is the deal with our citizens being treated like Jesse James just for driving a white van?

[NittanyLion]

1. Authorities need to release more details to the public, including descriptions, info on the tarot card, etc.

But can authorities do this without compromising the investigation?

I think they can. Authorities weighed these very same questions in the Unabomber case, and their method yielded success. If the success of your investigation will rely on public tips, you must give the public enough information for them to reply intelligently.

2. Authorities should put in place a system where the public can be alerted via radio (Emergency Broadcast System) within minutes that a shooting has occurred at X - be attentive.

Not a bad idea. But would it serve to foster a climate of justice, or a climate of fear? Judging how the media has been characterizing the population around the DC area, a EBS would seem to only foster fear and reclusion. Ultimately, the public would need the mindset that they are willing to put themselves at risk to catch the sniper- and ultimately save the lives of others. I want to have faith that Americans would do this. But I think fear has a pretty tight grip on many citizens in the DC area.

Yes, the public must be willing to put themselves at risk. But that's always been the intent - the citizens are responsible for protecting themselves, notwithstanding Sarah Brady's press releases. If they aren't up to that task then this sniper is the least of our problems. BTW, my thought is more that people would follow at a safe distance or call the police when a strange vehicle/person passes their location. If no catch is made, at least the police could use these details to deduce a path of exit.

Thank you, NittanyLion, for your considerate reply.

And you for yours. It's always a pleasure.

[Spirited]

"Police mentality using arrogant brute force is getting worse not better."

The sickness of militarizing the police is going on as we can clearly see. When they all have this mentality the public can be "set in a row" by whomever wants to rule for whatever reason is desirable. History so easily repeats itself.

[sweetliberty]

"Aren't liberals the ones who want extreme measures in order to gain safety - like repealing the 2nd Amendment?"

Actually, I think liberals would suspend the Constitution altogether. It is an inconveniently cumbersome document that obstructs their socialist agenda.

[Mr. Mojo]

Of course, this would NEVER occur to our squad of "Andy Taylors and Barney Fifes".

Barney for sure, but Andy was a decent cop. Here's who we really need.

[TankerKC]

...tell me that they couldn't do that...

This is not meant to be an insult, but do you have any expertise in this area? I don't, but I work with a few folks who do. First of all, the idea that we can do these things come from watching too many movies. Second, if a satellite were not in that orbit, you would have to change it. That would be risky (considering what it may already need to be looking at) and difficult.

Any other folks out there with some insight.

[HairOfTheDog]

they should just level with the public and lay down some ground rules. For instance, they could state through the media that during the next roadblock, anybody driving a white van should step out of the van with his hands in clear view when approached by a police officer.

Oh good idea. < /sarc >.... What? No announced rules for people in grey Hondas?... Can they be asked to just cooperate with instructions during this roadblock? Asking them to "step out of the van with his hands in clear view when approached by a police officer" is exactly what they are doing now... one by one.

[McGavin999]

Obviously not ALL drivers of white vans are being "busted". Probably just those who are mouthing off about needing a search warrent and not answering reasonable questions. We've seen two pictures. Are you telling me that there were only two white vans in all those thousands of cars that were being stopped? You don't even know that they were being arrested.

You guys sound as bad as the Al Queda using our own laws to support a killer. If you guys can do so much better then the LEO's then I suggest you get your guns and get out there and kill that guy and then you won't have to worry about anyone stomping on your "rights". In the meantime, there's a madman out there who is intent on picking us off one by one while you're sitting safe at home at your keyboard second guessing the men and women who are out on the front lines taking their lives in their hands each time they approach an unknown vehicle.

If you haven't got the guts to be out there with them, then SHUT UP!

[Velveeta]

Actually, I stumbled upon FR in Oct 2001 shortly after 9/11. I registered then under a different name and for some reason when I switched my computer to a different phone line, I was no longer able to post under my original hat.

I thank you for your reply and see that you have some valid suggestions. I still feel that at the moment, all LE has are descriptions of white vans, a tarot card and .223 caliber weapon descriptions.

If they didn't stop the vans, the public would be up in arms about that as well. Posting stakeouts as you suggested is a good idea, but given the percentage of manpower vs. places to snipe, that too is a daunting task. Like you said, maybe it is time for the National Guard.

Unfortunately, the best bet is a reliable *tip* and this sniper probably covered those bases.

Regarding the guy kissing the dirt, I'm assuming he was not cooperative with LE. I watched several of the white van searches on TV last night and saw everyone with hands up in the air, backing slowly away from the car. This guy may have done or said *something* to incur a varied response.

[choppersrule]

"Americans are being taught to accept having armed bureaucrats pointing loaded weapons at them. They are being taught to obey."

MFGng BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SSN558]

The imposition of massive dragnets of people driving white vans proves that the terrorists are winning a war to destroy freedom in America. The airline industry is in shambles, the very freedom to move about is under attack, and terrorists have only begun to exploit the weaknesses of a free society. The folly of the Clinton foreign policy was the begining of the end of America as we knew it. Terrorists trained, collected resources, and immigrated to America by the thousands, it will take decades to weed the garden.

[TankerKC]

If you haven't got the guts to be out there with them, then SHUT UP!

This little "debate" is gettng heated, but you should rethink this statement. Are you saying that if we don't happen to be cops, then we should not comment on their actions?

[SamAdams76]

They really are not able to stop all traffic in all directions. The bad guy has plenty of time to figure his escape route, and execute the plan. A simple plan is all that is needed to get 10 miles away before any dragnet is placed into action.

This comment just triggered an epiphany in me...

What if there IS NO escape route? Think about it. The area of the shooting last night was surrounded by motels. What if the sniper booked a room, took a "stroll" into the woods, lined up his target, and then strolled back into the motel. And all these "white vans" are just distractions. Perhaps he has accomplices who are always in a white van nearby with a cell phone. Not only do they tell him when the coast is clear to take a shot, but they provide a convenient decoy because people always remember a white van driving away from the scene. If the van is stopped, it is as clean as a whistle and the killer is already back in his motel room waiting for the coverage to start on CNN.

[rintense]

Thanks for the reply, Sam.

There have been ideas such as yours (the National Guard) being brought in to help. The idea has merit, but I would ask the following:

When will the strict Constitutionalists bark that it is illegal to bring in federal troops to catch a criminal? (And it isn't illegal. The military CAN help in a civilian investigation, as long as they do not participate in the actual arrest). Also, along with that argument goes with, 'My taxes are paying for the government to catch a criminal that local LE should be getting'. You know someone will say that.

There is no doubt in my mind that the local LE can not handle this, particularly with the scenario you raise. Yet, there will be some who will say that deploying federal troops in a local investigation is just another reason the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. What's to stop the federal troops from thwarting other crime that may be occuring?

SamAdams76, I think your ideas are good. This is such a complex situtation that I think no matter what is done, issues will be raised. Thanks again for the reply.

[SamAdams76]

If you haven't got the guts to be out there with them, then SHUT UP!

I would gladly be out there with them. Where do we sign up?

[Spirited]

Your example is like comparing apples and oranges. Back then was as different a time as 1902 would be.

The tenor and intent of the feds was different, the purpose of the political parties was different. Enjoy your thrill.
But don't compare it with what we are seeing where I live now.

[FormerLurker]

First of all, the idea that we can do these things come from watching too many movies.

I have heard that we can zoom in far enough to read license plates.

Second, if a satellite were not in that orbit, you would have to change it.

You'd have to think that since the DC area is of vital national interest, there'd be at least ONE satellite monitoring the area 24/7...

[Iron Eagle]

Well, from inside the sniper's sights, here's a few thoughts:

1) You assume these people are "innocent." That guy handcuffed on the street was not handcuffed for simply driving a white van. He may well have had an outstanding warrant. The picture doesn't really tell us.

2) As for the guys with their hands up, well if I were an officer approaching one of these vans, I would have guns drawn too. And if I were in one of these Vans, I would have my hands up and be cooperative. Nothing unusual there.

3) Legally, of course, probable cause exists to stop all these Vans, so we don't have any problem there either.

4) As for what it is really like down here, most of us pass through these check-points without problem or incident. And, we are very happy to cooperate. I was stuck in a dragnet on Rt 66 east on Monday night after the sniper killed a woman at the home depot where I regularly shop, just 3 miles from my house. It sure is inconvenient, but no one has a better solution yet.

The cops are working their butts off on this case. We have cops coming in from other jurisdictions and volunteering on their days off. We have feds, we have 6 different agencies and departments now searching. The mundane tasks of filling up at the pump, buying groceries, walking our kids to school, or even playing in parks or our backyards have taken on real and frightening risks.

We are all paying a price down here, some unfortunately, with their lives. For the literally thousands of white van owners, the inconvenience is even worse. But for those law abiding citizens, they have no reason to fear and they are happy to cooperate.

[rintense]

Nice solutions, Nittany. My biggest problem with all of this is the utter foolishness of the media. If they would just step back and see how silly they sound- specifically by fostering a climate of fear- and present the facts, I think it would do much good.

And I agree wholeheartedly that it is up to private citizens to remain eternally vigilant and aware of what is going on around them. President Bush asked us to do that after 9-11. But I think that many fail to realize that his simple request should be part of our daily lives- terrorism or not.

Thanks again!

[sweetliberty]

" your own hypothetical says that the case would be tossed if it was an improper search"

I realize that this wasn't addressed to me but I have a question. Let's just assume that what they're doing is okay and they take in a number of people whom it is later determined were detained improperly. As one poster mentioned, in the case of a roadblock, if an individual is detained, their vehicle is going to be towed. If that person was only detained becasue of the faulty reasoning of a LEO and is released, who is liable for the expense incurred as a result?

[browardchad]

As long as we see only knee-jerk reaction everytime this loose link breaks our collective chain, we can only expect more fear and distrust.

Or the appearance of a knee-jerk reaction, and for today's public, appearances are unfortunately, everything.

I'm not sure I agree with your "trigger event" theory, unless this was someone who had already mapped out a strategy for this killing spree, and a specific event was simply the trigger to a plan already in place.

This is definitely not spur-of-the-moment, nor has it been from day #1.

Of course, if you're looking for the most likely group of people demonstrating redwood-sized chips, and for whom world events might be a triggering factor, it's fairly obvious where to concentrate the investigation. Think of a certain person who killed two people on July 4 at LAX; the theoretical trigger, 9/11, was ten months in the making.