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Drivers of White Vans are being treated as criminals
Vanity | Self

Posted on 10/20/2002 7:48:19 AM PDT by SamAdams76

The photos above currently on the Drudge site concern me. I followed the link and the article clearly stated that nobody was arrested last night.

Why then, do we have drivers of white vans, innocent civilians, evidently being pulled out vans at gunpoint and treated like dangerous criminals? One photo shows a man on the ground, evidently in handcuffs, with police officers standing over him as though they have just captured Whitey Bulger. When I first saw the photo, I figured the man was obviously a wanted criminal that police just so happened to come across during their search. But since there were no arrests last night, this man was obviously released and was no criminal after all.

The other photo shows a man by another white van with his hands in the air and a police officer has a gun drawn on him. Again, this was evidently just another innocent civilian who had the misfortune to be driving a white van on I-95 last night.

Now I understand the need for these roadblocks and for the police to be very thorough in their search for the sniper(s). But I cannot see the point of innocent people dragged out of their vehicles at gunpoint with no pretext other than the fact that they happen to be driving a white van.

Now maybe somebody here has an explanation why these two individuals were treated like criminals. Maybe they tried to evade the police or maybe they were driving stolen vans. But again, there were no arrests made last night. So what is the deal with our citizens being treated like Jesse James just for driving a white van?


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; US: Virginia
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To: cynicom
"The cops ARE profiling white males."

Interesting approach since last I heard at least 5 witnesses have reported 2 mideastern or hispanic males. I guess since we can't profile them that the next best thing is white males since they are virtually the only group in the country with no legal recourse.

201 posted on 10/20/2002 10:16:57 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: PatrioticAmerican
dragent = dragnet.
202 posted on 10/20/2002 10:17:39 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: McGavin999
Since when do we need a court issued piece of paper when reasonable cause is so blatently obvious?

Since the 1700s.

203 posted on 10/20/2002 10:18:20 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: Velveeta
Here's another thing law enforcement can do to diffuse the situation. If they have real good reason to check out white vans, they should just level with the public and lay down some ground rules. For instance, they could state through the media that during the next roadblock, anybody driving a white van should step out of the van with his hands in clear view when approached by a police officer.

I'm not fond of that approach either but at least it gives the occupants a chance to comply with the search without having to be tossed into the street at gunpoint and handcuffed.

204 posted on 10/20/2002 10:19:50 AM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Look, they are trying to catch an escaping killer. It's not like it's the next day, or the next week, it's within minutes of another killing. The white van is ALL they have to go on. They're probably looking at all vehicles, but it's reasonable that they give more attention to white vans.

A lot of the same people who are complaining about airport screeners NOT looking at middle eastern men are the same ones on this thread screaming because the police are looking at white vans.

205 posted on 10/20/2002 10:20:07 AM PDT by McGavin999
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To: All
For any who haven't yet read my post #183, try reading it and then come back and tell me that they couldn't do that if they REALLY wanted to catch this guy.
206 posted on 10/20/2002 10:20:18 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: SamAdams76
Thank you for this thread, and especially, the way you have kept it focused on the issue represented on the pictures.

You are a master avowing being sucked into extraneous arguments.

207 posted on 10/20/2002 10:22:05 AM PDT by LO_IQ
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To: rintense
What would you do to catch the sniper?

I refer you to my post #193 (and others)

208 posted on 10/20/2002 10:22:32 AM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: NittanyLion
Then you have completely misunderstood the intent of the Constitution. It was NOT written for lawyers, it was written for the American people. WE are the ultimate judges in this situation. Most people are bright enough to understand what's going on. Those who are not, will just have to be thrown to the ground while their vans are searched.

As I said before this is NOT unreasonable search and seizure. This is commonsense being performed to catch an escaping killer within minutes of his killing again. Why don't you tell me where this is unreasonable.

209 posted on 10/20/2002 10:23:04 AM PDT by McGavin999
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To: rintense
NO, my question is not an attempt to shut down debate. I am simply looking for freeper ideas on how to catch the sniper without violating rights.   That is the debate:  violating rights. Is the debate "How to Catch the Sniper"?  No, it is not.   See further explanation at post 192. I'm sorry if I'm "not getting" your point and have caused frustration...sigh.
210 posted on 10/20/2002 10:23:15 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: McGavin999
As I said before this is NOT unreasonable search and seizure. This is commonsense being performed to catch an escaping killer within minutes of his killing again. Why don't you tell me where this is unreasonable.

Probable cause does not exist. You can say this is commonsense as many times as you like, but that doesn't make it so.

211 posted on 10/20/2002 10:24:24 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: McGavin999
"reasonable cause" is actually "probable cause".

If half the shootings involved a particular white van of make and model, sure, stop them all, but, we have a situation where only a few shootings involve a white van and with different van descriptions, including different sizes.

As such, it is sloppy police work to say that all white vans and trucks within a ten mile radius should be stopped and the drivers arrested. Yes, arrested. Being handcuffed is an arrest.

If a witness could describe a particular vehicle, then it would be prudent to stop all vehicles that matched the description, but we don't have such a witness.

If the police could identify a particular rifle, should all known owners of such a rifle have their homes busted into and have the owners hancuffed and face down into their front lawns, while their guns are carted off for further analysis?

This dragnet crap of all white vans and trucks is sloppy police work, not a prudent necessity.

212 posted on 10/20/2002 10:25:02 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: NittanyLion
1. Authorities need to release more details to the public, including descriptions, info on the tarot card, etc.

But can authorities do this without compromising the investigation?

2. Authorities should put in place a system where the public can be alerted via radio (Emergency Broadcast System) within minutes that a shooting has occurred at X - be attentive.

Not a bad idea. But would it serve to foster a climate of justice, or a climate of fear? Judging how the media has been characterizing the population around the DC area, a EBS would seem to only foster fear and reclusion. Ultimately, the public would need the mindset that they are willing to put themselves at risk to catch the sniper- and ultimately save the lives of others. I want to have faith that Americans would do this. But I think fear has a pretty tight grip on many citizens in the DC area.

3. Unfortunately, they must mostly rely on a person disrupting the next attempted sniping, or on an acquaintance turning the sniper in.

I agree. Someone in the public knows something. Ultimately, I do think the actions of a private citizen, whether it will be through tips or capture, will get the sniper.

Let's face it, these roadblocks are really meant to give the appearance the police are "on the case". The chances of one resulting in an arrest are nil; the sniper's already prepared for this eventuality.

Well, I do believe that the police have become so steadfast in their 'original' ideas of escape routes, etc., that they have completely shut down all other possibilities or escape routes. The police are looking for obvious answers to a complex crime.

Thank you, NittnayLion, for your considerate reply.

213 posted on 10/20/2002 10:25:11 AM PDT by rintense
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To: Howlin
Aren't you the dreamer. We've been asking for "their plan" for days. Nothing forth coming.

Well the dream is finally over! I posted my answer to this at #193.

214 posted on 10/20/2002 10:25:24 AM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: Howlin
We've been asking for "their plan" for days. Nothing forth coming.

Check out post #183 for your answer..

215 posted on 10/20/2002 10:28:14 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: GirlShortstop
No, I think they are both part of the same debate. If you present a problem (violating rights while trying to catch the sniper), then there must be a solution. What is your solution to catching the sniper?
216 posted on 10/20/2002 10:29:07 AM PDT by rintense
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To: EggsAckley
Profiling? Pfffftt! Yes, my van was the wrong color, and yes, they were looking for three men, not a woman driving a van. But can I fault them for being desperate to find those kids? Lives were at stake, and time was of the essence.

Good story, Egg. The coppers are sh!t up a creek enough without citizens getting all hissy about having to undergo traffic searches... People's lives are at stake. If I owned a white van, the cops could search it anytime.

BUMP

217 posted on 10/20/2002 10:29:10 AM PDT by maxwell
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To: McGavin999
That is the problem: they don't have a reasonable description of the vehicle. They have "anything white, but not a car" as about the only thing they are looking at. That is crazy.

These butcases can EASILY slip through such a wide focus. Easily. So, it doesn;t even make sense from a "get 'em" standpoint.

If they could say, "White, Dodge van, approximately 1990 model, sliding right door, and two doors in the rear", they could seriously focus, very quickly, on all vehicles matching that description. Instead, they spend hours looking at all white vehicles giving the bad guy plenty of time to make a get away.

They really are not able to stop all traffic in all directions. The bad guy has plenty of time to figure his escape route, and execute the plan. A simple plan is all that is needed to get 10 miles away before any dragnet is placed into action.

It is seriously difficult to make a full fence around a shooting to capture all white vehicles, but it would be much easier to try to catch a particular vehicle.

Besides, I do not mind the police stopping vehicles that match a particular description, but the treatment of the drivers is of concern, cooperative or not.
218 posted on 10/20/2002 10:32:07 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: NittanyLion
Of course, the absence of a better way would do nothing to legitimize this way of doing things.

Well, let's get theoretical then...

For the sake of arguement, let us say there is no better method available, you will argue then that pulling white vans over randomly and checking them at gun point without probable cause is a greater crime (against our rights, perpetrated by the government, in this instance) than the murders of these 9 (maybe 10), and the attempted murder of the 2 who have survived.

That is how I understand your case: It is better to let the killers continue killing than to engage in this kind of police action.

OK. I'll accept your position at face value (though, I must note, I don't agree with it.

In your consideration, does there come a point where your position changes regarding this method (of police work)? Say the killer(s) continued on in this pattern 4 more months and 50 people have been killed. Does that change your mind?

What if this kind of sniper pops up in five more states with similar success, so now there are 250 people dead. Does that make a difference?

Are there any number of deaths, is there a limit (in theory), any amount of disruption that would move you off your current position?

219 posted on 10/20/2002 10:32:07 AM PDT by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: SamAdams76
Do that to a black and Jesse Jackson and his ilk will be there to yell RACISM!!!!!!!!! ok for whites....
220 posted on 10/20/2002 10:32:09 AM PDT by celtic gal
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