Posted on 10/19/2002 6:38:53 AM PDT by Polycarp
YOPIOS = Your Own Personal Interpretation Of Scripture.
This is my new handy nmemonic for the error of sola scriptura as it applies to you folks today. I encourage my fellow Catholics to adopt this handy abbreviation, it makes typing these posts much easier
Not taught by the RCC!
Oh, you mean the sacraments. You call the sacramental system "works based salvation"? You really are out of touch with the Christian faith. The Fathers of the Church all accepted the sacraments.(except the heretics) You Johnny-come-latelies claim an awful lot when you say the sacramental system is invalid. Your theology is 1500 years too late and heretical to boot.
Bet you thought I forgot, huh:)
I have gone back this morning and read your post, and am really not sure what the question is on this passage. Could you be more specfic.
If you remember I suggested you read these passages in light of salvation being a done deal, and the judgements being on works. Also keep in mind that our works do show our faith. That is why works are important. We are to show our faith.
Also, in Matt. 25 I believe it is speaking of the seperation of nations, not necessairly individuals.
Becky
Then you say: Heart knowledge (love, gratitude, fear of displeasing) will cause you to want to obey God, because of what he has done for you.
And what is my goal? I want to be with Him! So I obey His commands and when I fall short (all the time!) I beg forgiveness because I do not want to injure Him further. I don't think we disagree on this although I see "obey" as something in addition to "faith only."
We should want rewards so we will have something to give to Jesus when we are judged.
We are giving Him back His own rewards to us? What if we have no rewards to give Him? Won't we feel bad? This reminds me of giving your child a candybar when he exibits good behavior that he should have anyway. Then he gives it back to me???
BUT THE WORKS ARE EVIDIENCE OF SALVATION NOT WORKS TO GAIN SALVATION.
No "works" are evidence of faith, not salvation. Is there a scripture quote for your words? I can't think of one offhand but I am not as familiar with the bible as you are.
Do you think Satan loves God?
He did at one time. Is satan saved? He was definitely saved and sanctified as Lucifer, "the anointed cherub", "perfect in his ways" who was "on the holy mountain of God." But satan had the sin of pride in him and he lost his salvation. Was Judas saved? Judas believed and was an apostle of Jesus for three years, he performed miracles along with the other apostles who were handpicked by Christ and the bible says that satan entered Judas and Judas betrayed Christ and was condemned.
Hebrews 10:26-29
26. If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27. but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
To my prayerful understanding, Hebrews, in these verses, tells us that we can sin AFTER receiving the Truth and be condemned. Of course, we can be repentant and beg for forgiveness, for He is merciful and just.
When you study, keep in mind that salvation is a one time done deal, if recieved with all sincerety. Sanctification, is an on going thing. Living the christian life is done because you are saved, not to get saved or stay saved. Study with these thoughts in mind, and you will start seeing those things reaveled clearly.
I've done a lot of studying on this issue (and several others lately) looking and praying for understanding of "OSAS" -- yet my studies have led me time and time again to the "judgement scenes" in the bible. For instance, in John 5:28 & 29
"Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation." In Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was ahungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was ahungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This judgement is of "works" (both good and bad and bad=sin) and has nothing in it of being judged on faith.
This is my sticking point with the "once saved, always saved." OSAS denies the need to act on our faith and put to use the graces given to us. It It takes away the need to be vigilant and defend ourselves from being led astray like St. Paul warned the Corinthians (who had the faith) in 2 Corinthians 11:3:
My fear is that, just as the serpent seduced Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted and you may fall away from your sincere and complete devotion to Christ.
What I find is that we will be judged by Christ, and that this judgement will depend on more then just a one-time "acceptance" of his gift of salvation - it also involves a life long journey of repentance for our ongoing sins (if they were forgiven and forgotten why do we repent?) and sanctification in our perseverence and trying as best as we can, with His grace, to live out His commandments (think of the parable of the rich man).
Several other verses that are helpful to my understanding are:
1 John 2:28 - "And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming." -- he is speaking to believers.
1 John 1:9, - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. -- speaking to believers again and saying that conversly, if we do not confess we will not be forgiven and cleansed.
2 Pet. 3:16, 17 - "the ignorant and unstable twist [the Scriptures] to their own destruction . . . You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." --- speaking to believers and telling them they can be carried away.
James 5:19,20 - "If any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death." -- speaking to believers and telling us we can wander away from the Truth.
Bet you think I had forgotten, too!
This is confusing. On the one hand, it seems you are saying 1. salvation is a done deal if we accept His free gift and believe in Him.
2. All sin is forgiven and forgotten because He covered us with His blood and we are justified, no matter what we do or what we don't do.
On the other hand, you are saying 2. But we will be judged on works.
In the "judgement scenes" in the bible, there isn't anything in there about faith at all. He is judging on "works" and either condeming for no works or condeming for bad works... and bringing to heaven those with good works (and we can presume those good works are done in faith, I think?). He isn't handing out crowns for good works and giving no crowns for bad works or no works at all. This is a passage of eternal punishment... heaven or hell based on works or lack thereof.
Do you think the bible makes a distinction between "bad works" and sin, or are they both the same? Also, to my way of believing, a lack of works would be sins of omission (things we should have done, but did not when given the opportunity - this happens all the time to me).
Also, in Matt. 25 I believe it is speaking of the seperation of nations, not necessairly individuals.
I dunno... it seems to be the "final" judgement the way I read it.
I don't think we disagree on this although I see "obey" as something in addition to "faith only."
I see "obeying" as not in additon to faith, but BECAUSE of faith. Is that the same to you?
What if we have no rewards to give Him? Won't we feel bad?
Yes, that is exactly what I said, that is the part in 1 Cor. about If any mans works shall be burned he shall suffer loss
No "works" are evidence of faith, not salvation. Is there a scripture quote for your words? I can't think of one offhand but I am not as familiar with the bible as you are.
You are right. I used the wrong words. Works are evidence of our faith in our salvation, and are our way of giving thanks for it.
But satan had the sin of pride in him and he lost his salvation.
I would like to see some of the scripture references to your points about Lucifer. The above is, IMO, evidence that he was never saved. Isaiah 14:13. says it all.
About Judas, I can't recall scripture saying he performed miracles. I do recall saying Judas was a miser and thief John12:5-6. Just because Jesus chose him as one of the apostles does not mean he accepted. In fact I believe that is why he was chosen. God knew before the foundation of the world who would accept and reject. He used this knowledge to accomplish his plan. He did not predestine Judas as the fall guy, he knew that is what Judas would chose by his own freewill.
To my prayerful understanding, Hebrews, in these verses, tells us that we can sin AFTER receiving the Truth and be condemned. Of course, we can be repentant and beg for forgiveness, for He is merciful and just.
The warning in these verses of Heb. was given because many of them were continuing to go to the temple and were actually offering sacrifices there. In so doing they were making it clear that the casrifice of Christ was meaningless to them. To continue to offer blood sacrifices which had been fulfilled by Christ was a terrible thing. If a person rejects the truth of Christ's death for sin, there is no other sacrifice for sin available,
If after we have received the truth by offering sacrifices for our sins we are willfully sinning. Is is an attitude toward the Word of God whichGod calls willful rebellion.
John 5:28 & 29
Don't you think that not believing and trusting in Jesus sacrifice on the cross could be considered doing evil?
OSAS denies the need to act on our faith and put to use the graces given to us.
Every post I have sent to you I have refuted this notion. We have a great need to show our faith, so that others will be influenced by it and be saved, to gain rewards, to show obedience out of thankfulness and gratitude.
It takes away the need to be vigilant and defend ourselves from being led astray like St. Paul warned the Corinthians (who had the faith) in 2 Corinthians 11:3: My fear is that, just as the serpent seduced Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted and you may fall away from your sincere and complete devotion to Christ.
I have said time again, yes we do sin. We are to be vigilant not to fall into temptation, we do this BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED AND LOVE THE LORD FOR SAVING US AND LOVING US.
All the other verses you quoted are read with the idea that it is talking of losing salvation. Go back and read them again with the thought in mind that they are talking about losing rewards, keep in mind it is not alkinga bout loss of salvation.
Becky
You say: "He meant the atonement ,the slaughter of the Lamb for the forgivness of sin was finished."
I have been doing a great deal of reading on the Passover. It is so obvious that Jesus transformed Himself into the sacrificial passover lamb! John's (and Luke's as well) gospel perfectly illustrates this. I went back to Exodus and studied the passover "rules" given to the Jews... "It is finished" meant that the 4th cup was finished... the passover was finished. It could not have meant our atonement or justification was finished as He had not yet ascended to the Father... as illustrated by St. Paul in Romans 4:24 & 25
---"But also for us, to whom it shall be reputed, if we believe in him that raised up Jesus Christ, our Lord, from the dead, Who was delivered up for our sins and rose again for our justification." ---
The author of Hebrews is saying exactly what I am saying..if you refuse the sacrifice of Christ there is nothing more YOU can do..you are lost. He was the Perfect and complete sacrifice planned from the foundation of the world..
This is the passage in Hebrews we are both referring to:
"For if WE (we includes St. Paul) deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement. [Hebrews 10:26-27; RSV]...
You missed my point. My point is that WE believers can deliberately sin AFTER we receive the knowledge of Truth. If we do that, and we can do that, as St. Paul says, then there is no sacrifice remaining for our sins... but we will fear the judgement that will be meted out to us. Deliberate would mean we have free will, I believe. St. Paul is saying that although we have the Truth in us, it can be lost through our deliberate sin... therefore, "once saved, always saved" cannot be true.
I still have to reply to the rest of your post, and I will do that later on.
Works done in faith are good works, and SHOW faith in Jesus' sacrifice.
If you will remember the verse Matt 7:21-23 ....and in thy name done many worderful works. And then I will profess unto them I never knew you, depart from me.....shows to me that there are people who will do good works but not be saved. So the works are not the issue. It is faith, the knowledge we can do nothing good without faith in Christ. The works of the saved will be judged, 2 Cor. 5:10. I think you are viewing the judgements as all one big thing. I think there will be several judgements. i.e. the judgement of the believers works, the Great White Thorne Judgement which is the judgement of the lost.
Becky
I am making supper (because I have to go to work in a while) and my kids are due home... but a quick reading of your posts to me seem to say that you are saying "faith and works" and not "faith only"
Works done in faith are good works, and SHOW faith in Jesus' sacrifice.
Yes.
If you will remember the verse Matt 7:21-23 ....and in thy name done many worderful works. And then I will profess unto them I never knew you, depart from me.....shows to me that there are people who will do good works but not be saved. So the works are not the issue. It is faith, the knowledge we can do nothing good without faith in Christ.
Works are the issue! For He says: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven" -- directly before your quote of 21 - 23. So, he is saying that although you call his name (believe) if you do not do what the Father commands, you will be rejected. So you cannot just "say and do" you have to "hear and do." Which contradicts "faith only" --- unless you are saying that works and faith are wrapped up in the same package.
The works of the saved will be judged, 2 Cor. 5:10. I think you are viewing the judgements as all one big thing. I think there will be several judgements. i.e. the judgement of the believers works, the Great White Thorne Judgement which is the judgement of the lost.
the judgement of the believers works, the Great White Thorne Judgement..
Never heard of either one!!!
I believe there will be two judgments... It is easier to just give you the "official" answer. To tell you the truth, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about His judgment but every day I do pray this prayer a whole lot of times:
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins."The Gospel Truth"
Save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.
After death, we undergo two judgments. Each person will be judged individually immediately after death, as the soul leaves the body. This is known as the "particular" judgment. At this individual judgment God irrevocably determines a person's reward or punishment for all eternity, depending on his or her cooperation in living out the Gospel message during one's time on earth. The span of our lifetime, here below, is the span of our time of trial. "Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God" (Hebrews 9:27)
"Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven - through a purification or immediately, - or immediate and everlasting damnation" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1022).
The "general" judgment refers to the universal or collective judgment of the human race at the end of the world, when Christ will come again to earth "to judge the living and the dead" (Creed). This general judgment will be a solemn repetition in "public" of the particular judgment, immediately after the final resurrection of the dead when each soul will be reunited to his or her own resurrected body. Both the just and the wicked will be judged.
"The resurrection of all the dead, of both the just and the unjust will precede the Last Judgment. This will be the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear the Son of man's voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). Then Christ will come in his glory, and all the angels with him…. And he will separate the sheep from the goats…. And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Mt. 25:31-46). The Last Judgment will reveal to the furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life" (CCC #1038, 1039).
We simply do not know how this can be, and it is not important to know such things, since it is ultimately the verdict pronounced by the same Judge.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
<> Some ignore unpleasant facts in the Bible. It is necessary to do so if one is to defend the 16th century heretics :)
It will be helpful if you remember she has said that ALL works are filthy rags.<>
And every post I have sent you shows how we have to have faith and works and our salvation depends on those TWO graces.
Are you saying that "once saved, always saved" is not just dependant on "faith only?"
I wuz thinking earlier (breading pork chops) that probably tons of stuff we do we don't even know are "good works" because they come naturally to us by the grace of God.
Rev.20:11
Great white throne judgement.
Judgement of believers works: soemtimes called the Bema Seat. It is true that for the Christian there no condemnation (Rom 8:1)but it is not correct to assume that God will not hold him responsible for the deeds done in the body. 1 Cor. 3:10-15,
but a quick reading of your posts to me seem to say that you are saying "faith and works" and not "faith only"
Maybe you should read it slow then if you really are interested in what I believe.
faith and works are what God wants. BUT WORKS DO NOT SAVE. THEY ARE NOT PART OF SALVATION.
Works show our faith. Works show our love for God.Works are acts of obedience to show are gratitude to God for saving our miserable hides. Works are our witness to others. Works are rewarded when we get to heaven. The verses from, Matt. show that without saving faith works won't amount to a hill of beans. I believe those verses are referring to people who do good works and take the credit for themselves, who think those works will save them.
Salvation and works are two seperate parts of the christian life.
Think about it this way. If you committed a murder, and were about to hang for it, and someone came along and asked the judge if he could take the punishment for you and you could walk free and the judge said OK. The person steps up and takes the noose from you neck puts it on his then takes the drop. How are you going to feel towards that person after that? Probably pretty grateful, to the point of wanting to find some way to show your gratitude. That is what our works do.
Becky
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