Posted on 10/11/2002 6:10:44 AM PDT by apackof2
Scientific Approach
The founder of Reasons to Believe presents a rational Christian look at UFOs and extraterrestrials.
Hugh Ross has a B.S, Physics, University of British Columbia; M.S. & Ph.D., Astronomy, University of Toronto.
Mr. Ross is the co-author of, Lights in the Sky & Little Green Men (NavPress, 2002)
Hugh has been stargazing since he was a young boy, and by the age of 17, he had become director of observations for the Royal Astronomical Society in Canada. As an astronomer, Hugh has logged thousands of observation time and has learned that science can and does address the possibility of life’s existence elsewhere in the universe. In the mid-'70s, Hugh was assigned the task of processing UFO reports at CalTech. At the same time, Hugh began an intense study of the Bible. "Secular society is gullible about the possibility that extraterrestrial life exists without having scientific evidence to prove it," says Hugh. "The motivation for this book is the need to communicate clear, satisfying explanations from scientific, theological, philosophical, and political standpoints."
Hugh says that he uses the scientific approach called "the process of elimination" to answer the question Is there a place where extraterrestrials could live in the universe? Over the years, science has made some significant advances. "The number of candidates for life sites within the Milky Way grows smaller each day," says Hugh. At one time, biologists speculated that extraterrestrial life forms might be based on exotic chemistry, not carbon as earthly life is. But today the conclusion is that all conceivable life forms must be carbon-based. And if life forms exist on other planets, they must be planets like Earth, orbiting a star like the sun in a galaxy like the Milky Way. "Ongoing research shows that this seems less possible as each year passes," says Hugh.
Residual UFOs
Most people think UFOs are physical. "But they can’t be physical," says Hugh, "because they defy gravity." While Hugh does not say that UFOs aren’t real, no physical object can move like UFOs have been reported to move. Respected UFOolgists agree that there must be something real at the bottom of some UFO reports. Residual UFOs (RUFOs) is a terminology that refers to the UFOs that are left over after all the others are explained away. There is quite a bit of evidence that UFOs are real, such as crash sites. There are over 1,000 sites where allegedly the UFOs have crashed. "The ground is depressed, the trees and grass are burnt," says Hugh. "In these scenarios, we are dealing with non-physical reality." What this evidence suggests is that RUFOs are capable of producing physical effects, such as burnt grass, but are not physical themselves.
Hugh says the Bible proclaims the existence of a personal Creator who can act independently outside the cosmos and who is not restricted by the four, large space-time dimensions (length, width, height or time). The Bible also describes the spirit realm (the realm beyond matter, energy and space-time dimensions) and declares the existence of God and two or more distinct creatures: humans and angels. Hugh explains that humans remain physically restricted to the dimensions of the cosmos and cannot account for the unexplained phenomena. Angels, or fallen angels, remain as possible links. Fallen angels, or demons, intent on distorting God’s authority and purpose, draw attention away from God and the gospel and are an identifiable source of explanation.
The conclusion that demons are behind the RUFOs phenomenon is testable. According to the Bible, demons attack only those individuals who invite the attacks. "All that is necessary to further prove the conclusion of demonic involvements," says Hugh, "is to continue surveying people to ascertain who has encounters with RUFOs and who does not." Researchers continue to observe a correlation between the degree of invitations in a person’s life to demonic attacks (séance, Ouija boards, astrology, witchcraft, palm or psychic reading). One reason why research scientists may be reluctant to say specifically that demons exist behind the RUFOs is because that answer points too directly to a Christian interpretation of the problem.
Reasons to Believe is an interdenominational ministry that communicates the basis for belief in the Bible as the true Word of God.
www.reasons.org
In three separate posts you have made claims -- posts #272, 276 and 277. I have called you to back up each of those claims with facts. This makes the third time I have called on you to back up each of your three claims or admit your three errors or admit your errors and correct them. I will repost your claims and my response to each where I called you to back them up. Please back up your claims or admit your errors and correct them.
Claim 1:
#3Fan: You say that Christians have a tendency toward child abuse. 272
Zon: I challenge you to back up that claim with fact. 279
#3Fan: So you don't think Christianity is mysticism? 285
Zon: Stop obfuscating and prove your claim that you made in your # 272 post by providing facts to back up your claim. Or, admit your error and correct it. 294
Zon: I never said anything of the sort about Christians. So either back up your claim with facts or admit your error and correct it. 279
#3Fan: Christianity is more than mysticism in your view? You don't include Christians in your accusations of post #251? 285
Zon: Either prove your claim that you made in your # 272 post by providing facts, or admit your error and correct it. 294
Claim 2:
#3Fan: Zon got all self-righteous accusing Christians of the evil of child abuse. 276
Zon: I challenge you to back up that claim with fact. I never said anything of the sort about Christians. So either back up your claim with facts or admit your error and correct it. 280
#3Fan: You don't think Christianity is a form of mysticism? 286
Zon: You're still avoiding your responsibility to be honorable. Either prove your claim that you made in your #276 post by providing facts, or admit your error and correct it. 295
Claim 3:
#3Fan: Like it or not, Hitler and Stalin are very relevent to a atheist vs. Christion debate when the debate turns to crimes committed by each. Zon and Andy made the mistake of taking this argument in that direction and now they're getting nuked for it. 277
Zon: That's obvious. I speak for myself. I never brought Christians into the "debate", you injected Christians into the discussion. I never said anything about Christians. So either back up your claim with facts or admit your error and correct it. 281
#3Fan: So who's committing this child abuse? Witches? 287
Zon: You're still avoiding your responsibility to be honorable. Either prove your claim that you made in your #277 post by providing facts, or admit your error and correct it. When making errors, it is always the person that makes the error that benefits the most by correcting his or her own errors. 296
LOL OK Here's you're post #251:
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To: #3Fan
[#3Fan]For those that are so shallow that they need God to do magic tricks to prove His existence, prophesy is coming true.
[Zon]I can't fathom seeking tricks or any thing from nothing. I think it's debilitating to a person who seeks that which doesn't exist in reality and only in their mind. Right up their with Santa Clause, an Easter Bunny and tooth fairy.
[Zon continuing]Flying reindeer towing a fat man in a sleigh, an Easter bunny, tooth fairy and supernatural God. Such mysticism injected into innocent little minds striving to accurately identify reality in their formative years. Often looking up to their parents to confirm whether or not they have accurately identified reality. Those young innocent children betrayed in the name of fun and love. What causes such hideous child abuse? Mysticism: the number-one disease of the conscious mind.
251 posted on 10/12/02 9:19 PM Central by Zon [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 233 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
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Oh, how the mighty have fallen! You are reduced to pretending that post #251 doesn't exist but it's there for all to see. I think you've lost this war. LOL
Step up to the plate and get specific. Where am I wrong?
Hugh Ross is one of the finest Christian men I know and I can tell from the way you speak of him that you do not know the man.
Don't always believe what others tell you about some one. Don't judge another brother because of your pride in being 'right'.
When Hugh is attacked by others in the Christian community, he always responds in a Christian manner, in the likeness of Christ.
We have a spirit body and a physical body. Satan was allowed to walk in a body that was more than the spirit body when he wholly seduced Eve. Now he is chained but he is allowed to roam the earth in the spirit. Cain is the son of Satan and Eve. Look at Adam's progeny. Cain is not listed. The bible says that the synagogue of Satan is of the seed of the first murderer and that they are of the seed of Satan.
Zon: I can't fathom seeking tricks or any thing from nothing. I think it's debilitating to a person who seeks that which doesn't exist in reality and only in their mind. Right up their with Santa Clause, an Easter Bunny and tooth fairy. 251
Flying reindeer towing a fat man in a sleigh, an Easter bunny, tooth fairy and supernatural God. Such mysticism injected into innocent little minds striving to accurately identify reality in their formative years. Often looking up to their parents to confirm whether or not they have accurately identified reality. Those young innocent children betrayed in the name of fun and love. What causes such hideous child abuse? Mysticism: the number-one disease of the conscious mind. 251
LOL OK Here's you're post #251:
Considering that with your #303 post you have again failed to back up your three claims with proof/facts, perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part that you'll correct your above error.
Oh, how the mighty have fallen! You are reduced to pretending that post #251 doesn't exist but it's there for all to see. I think you've lost this war. LOL
Post #251 is on record. As are your claims in posts 272, 276 and 277 on record. Just as my posts 279, 280, 281, 294, 295 and 296, are on record calling on you to back up you claims or admit your errors and correct them. And so are your posts 285, 286 and 287 on record where you chose to obfuscate and avoid backing up your claims or admitting your errors and correcting them.
I never pretended post 251 doesn't exist. I repost it proudly at the top of this post with a link back to the original. Post 251 makes no mention of Christians. For certain, flying reindeer with fat man in tow (Santa Clause), Easter bunny, tooth fairy and God that don't exist in reality and exist only as mind-spun fabrications via rationalized minds are not the exclusive domain of Christians. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even yours. Why you would seemingly go out of your way to further discredit yourself, I have no idea.
#3Fan 's three Claims:
#3Fan: You say that Christians have a tendency toward child abuse. 272
#3Fan: Zon got all self-righteous accusing Christians of the evil of child abuse. 276
#3Fan: Like it or not, Hitler and Stalin are very relevent to a atheist vs. Christion debate when the debate turns to crimes committed by each. Zon and Andy made the mistake of taking this argument in that direction and now they're getting nuked for it. 277
You have yet to provide facts that prove and back up your claim. Do so or admit your errors and correct them.
You said people that teach their kids of a supernatural God are guilty of "hideous child abuse". I would say that Christians believe and teach of a supernatural God. Would you?
I know whjat you're doing. You can't beat me with your arguments against Christianity so you're trying to muck up the debate with lawyeristic wild-goose-chases. Give it up. You've went down in flames. LOL
You ever heard of Genesis?
Gen 3:13 And the LORD [03068] God [0430] said [0559] (8799) unto the woman [0802], What [is] this [that] thou hast done [06213] (8804)? And the woman [0802] said [0559] (8799), The serpent [05175] beguiled me [05377] (8689), and I did eat [0398] (8799).
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Taking #5377 from 13 above:
05377 nasha' {naw-shaw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1425; v
AV - deceive 12, greatly 1, beguiled me 1, seize 1, utterly 1; 16
1) to beguile, deceive
1a) (Niphal) to be beguiled
1b) (Hiphil) to beguile, deceive
1c) (Qal) utterly (infinitive)
Verse 15 above clearly says that Satan had seed and that there would be enmity between Satan's seed and the woman, which is Israel, the seed of Abraham.
What do you do with this verse?
Cain and Abel were nonidentical twins. Eve "continued" in labor after birthing Cain and birthed Abel.
Gen 4:2 And she again [03254] (8686) bare [03205] (8800) his brother [0251] Abel [01893]. And Abel [01893] was a keeper [07462] (8802) of sheep [06629], but Cain [07014] was a tiller [05647] (8802) of the ground [0127].
Taking #3254:
03254 yacaph {yaw-saf'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 876; v
AV - more 70, again 54, add 28, increase 16, also 6, exceed 4, put 4, further 4, henceforth 4, can 2, continued 2, give 2, misc 17; 213
1) to add, increase, do again
1a) (Qal) to add, increase, do again
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to join, join oneself to
1b2) to be joined, be added to
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to cause to add, increase
1c2) to do more, do again
As you can see the word means "again" in the context of continuing because this original Hebrew word was translated as continued twice elsewhere and should've been here.
Zon: I never pretended post 251 doesn't exist. I repost it proudly at the top of this post with a link back to the original. Post 251 makes no mention of Christians. For certain, flying reindeer with fat man in tow (Santa Clause), Easter bunny, tooth fairy and God that don't exist in reality and exist only as mind-spun fabrications via rationalized minds are not the exclusive domain of Christians. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even yours. Why you would seemingly go out of your way to further discredit yourself, I have no idea. 309
You said people that teach their kids of a supernatural God are guilty of "hideous child abuse". I would say that Christians believe and teach of a supernatural God. Would you?
Here's what I said:
"Flying reindeer towing a fat man in a sleigh, an Easter bunny, tooth fairy and supernatural God. Such mysticism injected into innocent little minds striving to accurately identify reality in their formative years. Often looking up to their parents to confirm whether or not they have accurately identified reality. Those young innocent children betrayed in the name of fun and love. What causes such hideous child abuse? Mysticism: the number-one disease of the conscious mind." 251
I said nothing about any religion. People from many different religious and non religious walks of life partake in flying reindeer with fat man in tow (Santa Clause), Easter bunny, tooth fairy and supernatural God mind-spun fabrications via rationalized minds.
Below are your three totally unsupported claims. You cannot find one quote of mine where I mentioned Christians or implied Christians. You were the person that injected Christians into our discussion; doing so by accusing me of attacking Christians. You chose to make Christians the victims -- I assume you are a Christian (you can tell me if I've assumed wrong) -- by imagining that I was attacking Christians. You've imagined something that does not exist. Furthermore, you have carried on to considerable length to support your mind-spun fabrication via your rationalizations.
#3Fan 's three Claims:
#3Fan: You say that Christians have a tendency toward child abuse. 272
#3Fan: Zon got all self-righteous accusing Christians of the evil of child abuse. 276
#3Fan: Like it or not, Hitler and Stalin are very relevent to a atheist vs. Christion debate when the debate turns to crimes committed by each. Zon and Andy made the mistake of taking this argument in that direction and now they're getting nuked for it. 277
You have yet to provide facts that prove and back up your claim. Do so or admit your errors and correct them.
I know whjat you're doing. You can't beat me with your arguments against Christianity so you're trying to muck up the debate with lawyeristic wild-goose-chases.
I have not put forth any arguments against Christianity. Surely if I did you could quote me. The only lawyer-like dishonesty has been on your part. I repeat: You've imagined something that does not exist. Furthermore, you have carried on to considerable length to support your imagined, mind-spun fabrication with rationalizations.
As an observer of this interesting debate, I think it's clear that Christians would be included in supernatural God believers and mystiscism. If you meant to exclude Christians from your argument as being child abusers why didn't you make that clear?
I never thought about who would be excluded. Probably the reason I never thought about what people would be excluded because it would be obvious. Nor did I think about whether or not the people that would be included had religion or no religion. Nor did I think about what occupations they may or may not have, nor any demographic or psychographics markers. The corollary to my identification of people that partake in (1) flying reindeer with fat man in tow (Santa Clause), (2) Easter bunny, (3) tooth fairy and (4) supernatural God mind-spun fabrications, is that all people that do not partake in any of those four are excluded.
For certain IMO, those four are not the exclusive domain of Christians, are they? If they are, it's news to me.
As an aside: #3Fan has got his-or-her briefs/panties in a bunch over his-or-her imagined, mind-spun fabrication that my 251 post and posts thereafter have been directed specifically at Christians and or Christianity.
You talked of people that teach their kids of a supernatural God. Don't Christians teach their kids of a supernatural God?
People from many different religious and non religious walks of life partake in flying reindeer with fat man in tow (Santa Clause), Easter bunny, tooth fairy and supernatural God mind-spun fabrications via rationalized minds.
You said that those that teach of a supernatural God commit hideous child abuse. Christians are certainly in that group. It's irrelevent whether you meant them exclusively or not since they are certainly included in your grouping.
Below are your three totally unsupported claims. You cannot find one quote of mine where I mentioned Christians or implied Christians.
Christians teach of a supernatural God.
You were the person that injected Christians into our discussion; doing so by accusing me of attacking Christians. You chose to make Christians the victims -- I assume you are a Christian (you can tell me if I've assumed wrong) -- by imagining that I was attacking Christians.
Christians teach of a supernatural God. There's no getting around that.
You've imagined something that does not exist.
Post #251 does exist and it says that those that teach their children commit hideous child abuse. Christians certainly do teach of a supernatural God.
Furthermore, you have carried on to considerable length to support your mind-spun fabrication via your rationalizations.
Thinking that Christians teach of a supernatural God is a mind-spun rationaization? LOL
You have yet to provide facts that prove and back up your claim. Do so or admit your errors and correct them.
Post #251.
I have not put forth any arguments against Christianity.
Christians teach of a supernatural God. You said these people commit hideous child abuse.
Surely if I did you could quote me.
Post #251.
The only lawyer-like dishonesty has been on your part. I repeat: You've imagined something that does not exist.
Post #251 most certainly exists.
Furthermore, you have carried on to considerable length to support your imagined, mind-spun fabrication with rationalizations.
Saying that Christians teach of a supernatural God is a mind-spun rationization? Give it up. You've lost this war. Post #251 is there for all to see.
Never did I say Christians were the only ones but they certainly are included in the group that teachers of a supernatural God and you said those people commit hideous child abuse. Post #251 is there for all to see.
You mean like Andy_card?
OOPs I am sorry the devil made me do it....actually that's impossible because the devil doesn't exist, right?
Oh come on now andy this is the biggest fib you have told so far.
I can't imagine ANYTHING you could say or do that would be terrifying
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